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Buffy: The "We Don't Believe in Daylight Savings Time" Report


Comments more or less as viewed:

Happy that Willow's going back to school. Happy that Xander has lines. Granted, they could be cleverer lines, but at least they were lines. I've been thinking that Nick's stuttering/lisp thing has come back, or gotten worse, or something, and his lines might be being cut/altered accordingly. He doesn't seem to get the kind of lines that need to be delivered crisply, anymore, and it only really occurred to me during "Lessons" -- he's always had a tiny lisp, but he's practically spitting when he says "contracty goodness." Er, right. Back to the ep.

So, um, Anya was always odd and literal-minded? That makes less sense than it did when it was because she'd been out of the loop for centuries. And... bunnies! (Except... we still don't know why she hates them. Did they distract her at a crucial time when she should have been paying attention to Olaf and his bar matron?)

Eeep. Lady MacAnya. Honey, you'll never get 'em clean.

Obligatory "poor Spike" and "aww" that Buffy's being nice to him, but it can't possibly be Buffy. Oh look. It's not. But she does still care. Which is nice. I'll stop saying "nice" now. Look -- Buffy's still not annoying me! (Though like last week's Spike interlude, this too was superfluous, this one didn't annoy me. Because it was sweet.)

Awww. Geeker!Willow! So cute, going back to school. With a system of different coloured highlighters. ;-)

Eww. Very bloody house.

Eeeep! Spider!

Like the flashbacks. Love Abe Benrubi. (Who hails from the land where they don't believe in daylight savings time too.) Prettypretty medieval Anya. Sorry, Aud. Pretty name, too.

Like the Anya/Willow interaction. bettyp may be onto something.

Why does Buffy have to kill Anya? She didn't have to kill Hallie. She isn't hunting down D'Hoffryn. Why isn't the object to contain Anya, or destroy her power center again? I'm down with Buffy's speech -- it was good. Loved the "I killed Angel" speech. You know, that guy? On the other network? Whose love for Cordelia was destined? *cough* Sorry. Choked on a bit of bile there. But why does Buffy have to *kill* Anya, aside from, to provide dramatic tension?

The Lie! Willow blew The Lie open! And Buffy didn't even care or pay attention. It was treated as a joke. Thank you. Thankyouthankyouthankyou! *Does the neener dance to everyone who declared it a big fricking Xander-can-never-be-forgiven deal.

Hee! Spinny Xander in chair. Cute song. But... doesn't it seem like she's more in love with the idea of being married and together forever, than... with him? Is it just the slasher in me, or are they actually showing that?

Eeeeeeeeeeep! Hallie! I! But! Dangling Cecily plot thread! But! I! Damn!

*kills Joss*

But damn. That was good.

And aww, Xander/Anya... thing. Love/goodbye/something thing. Aww. (I was *not* insane. She was clinging to him. Hmmrm.)

Yay! Good ep. Really good ep. Even with big "Hey, Buffy? Power Center?" plothole.

Happy Dance.

byrne

2002-10-22 07:31 pm (UTC) (Link)

Yup.

Your servant.

mpoetess

2002-10-23 07:23 am (UTC) (Link)

:-P Dork.

saturn_girl

2002-10-22 07:50 pm (UTC) (Link)

Yay! Good ep. Really good ep. Even with big "Hey, Buffy? Power Center?" plothole.

Giles destroyed Anya's power center in the Wishverse, a reality that none of the "real reality" (does that even make sense?) Scoobs remember happening, so Buffy wouldn't know about the necklace.

Although you'd think Anya would remember and simply smash the necklace herself rather than let Hallie get torched in her stead...

mpoetess

2002-10-22 07:52 pm (UTC) (Link)

Yeah, but Anya used Willow to try to get it back, in "Dopplegangland" and she's bitched about the lack of it ever since. plus the whole thing about "Get her necklace" in "Older and Far Away." Surely the Scoobs would have to know about it?

Re:

saturn_girl

2002-10-22 09:01 pm (UTC) (Link)

D'OH! Forgot about OAFA. I think I was repressing after all Dawn's horrid shrieking "get out, get out, get out!" in that episode. ;-)

mpoetess

2002-10-22 09:13 pm (UTC) (Link)

Perfectly understandable. ;-)

Actually, was rewatching Selfless just now, and they focus quite clearly on both Anya's and Hallie's necklaces, during the scene in Anya's apartment. So they weren't forgetting about them, or pretending they didn't exist, so... why not *use* them?

*puzzled*

Oh -- hey! The life and soul of a vengeance demon. This should quiet all the "Anya was a demon, she didn't have a soul" arguments, yeah?

Re:

saturn_girl

2002-10-22 09:36 pm (UTC) (Link)

So they weren't forgetting about them, or pretending they didn't exist, so... why not *use* them?

Seeing Buffy reach over and crush a necklace just isn't as entertaining as watching Anya kick her around the frat house. And I don't mean that in a Buffy bashing way...it's just that cat fights are always fun.

The Anya/Buffy scuffle was great, but I loved the Xander/Buffy argument even more. It was great how both sides made valid points; I sympathized with both of them, although I think Buffy's decision to kill Anya was a little too hasty.


Oh -- hey! The life and soul of a vengeance demon. This should quiet all the "Anya was a demon, she didn't have a soul" arguments, yeah?

Yay, there's one tiresome debate everyone can put to rest! But with "Xander's Infamous Lie" resurfacing we'll have weeks and weeks of stinky 5-year-old dead horse flogging to endure. Just when you thought it was safe to go back to the message boards...

saava

2002-10-22 08:14 pm (UTC) (Link)

The Power Center thing bothered me, too. Couldn't Anya have even broken it herself when she decided that she wanted to take back what she'd done? Or at least told someone to do it for her?

But I still loved the ep.

mpoetess

2002-10-23 07:19 am (UTC) (Link)

Yeah, or hell, just taken the thing off and handed it to Buffy?

But in Anya's case, I think she was fighting so she'd be around long enough to get ahold of D'Hoffryn to ask for the wish to be reversed. She wouldn't want to give up her power, until she'd done that. In Buffy's case, though, I don't understand why she wouldn't have gone for the power center. Buffy, the one with the apparent head for tactics...

But I loved the ep too!

mpoetess

2002-10-23 07:22 am (UTC) (Link)

Ooops. Braindead. Yeah, smashing the power-center would have undone the wish. Um. Ok, there goes my theory.

(Deleted comment)

mpoetess

2002-10-23 06:50 am (UTC) (Link)

Yeah. And of course I was never more of an Anya/Xander shipper than when they're walking away from each other. "No, wait, you're being stupid! He loves you!" Wahhhh!

Shut up, Amy. He's single now. Remember, single=easier to slash?

Yeah, but they didn't hug! Wahhhh!

kita0610

2002-10-22 09:09 pm (UTC) (Link)

The Lie was treated as a joke, but man, god bless Joss and the continuity fairy for treating it at all FIVE YEARS LATER.

Also? So not the point. The point was Xander got his karmic commupance (er..sp?) in a big fucking way. For the lie. For the demon-hate. For fucking Anya and fucking with Anya.

Oh yea baby.

OTOH? How much do I now love Anya and wanna be a Willow/Anya shipper??

Sheesh.

God I love Joss.

mpoetess

2002-10-23 06:39 am (UTC) (Link)

I'm not sure what it was that Xander got. Not saying "Xander hasn't made mistakes" -- but not actually sure what Xander got in this episode that was so bad. An understanding of what Anya really was, as a demon? Okay, yeah, and that's good. It's learning -- but I don't know thatit was karmic in the sense of retribution. I mean, Anya got her own comeuppance in a major way, that seemed *much* more directly retributive -- she learned for final sure that yes, she's hurting actual people when she does vengeance, and no, the didn't deserve what they got, and being responsible for Hallie's death is something that's going to weigh on her a hell of a lot more than Buffy calling Xander out about Angel is going to weigh on him.

I love Anya too -- but I can't be the only person in the world to think that her centuries of wilfull murder and torture add up to a heavier karmic burden than Xander's short lifetime of occasional, often well-meaning fuckheadedness.

kita0610

2002-10-23 04:32 pm (UTC) (Link)

I knew this was gonna bug Amy, even moreso than the Wes is Ugly speech. Sorry babes.

But let me be clear, so at least you can mumble about me for the right reasons.

I think Xander finally had a moment in Buffy's shoes, which is what I think he has severely been lacking with all his hypocritical 'all demons must die unless I'm in love with them' crap. He never showed a lick of empathy for Buffy when she had to kill Angel. It wasn't the "Lie" perse, hell, it wouldn't have mattered what Xander or anyone else said or didn't say, Buffy was gonna have to kill Angel no matter what. We all know that. It was what the lie represents; his attitude about Buffy and Angel and Spike, and anyone who isn't well, *him*.

I know we've had this convo before, so I don't wanna rehash all the old stuff. But while Anya learned a huge fucking lesson at the cost of what was damn near her own soul, Xander finally learned what his own hubris and arrogance have done to the women he claims to love. All in all, a fair but painful deal.

mpoetess

2002-10-23 08:47 pm (UTC) (Link)

Um.

Actually, I don't really disagree with you there.

So. Um.

/me goes away to contemplate end of world.

;-)

kita0610

2002-10-23 08:54 pm (UTC) (Link)

I think I need to sit.

Oh look. I am sitting. Yay me. ;}

Kiss u.

bettyp

2002-10-22 10:01 pm (UTC) (Link)

I'm not sure it was treated as a joke. I don't think Buffy really groked that it happened at all. She was ranting angrily (and, oh God, fantastic rant, too -- because really, how tiresome would it get for people to rag on you for being too controlling and acting like you "weren't human," except when they need their asses saved, in which case they're more than happy to come to your inhumanly-juiced-up self and ask you to fix everything for them?), and Willow said, "I didn't say that." She sounds confused -- not like she understands that Xander has lied about her, but just, huh? Buffy stays focused on Xander; I don't think she was paying attention to Willow at all by that point. *Xander* hears her, realizes what might go down, and cuts her off fast by scotching the subject of Angel completely.

Maybe my happy Buffy/Angel heart is just playing happy tricks on me, but I don't think you can take this episode as any kind of proof that if Buffy ever did find out that Xander blocked her from knowing that there was a resouling-spell for Angel in progress, she'd be amused by it. I forgave Xander years ago, but. It's not a funny story.

mpoetess

2002-10-22 10:50 pm (UTC) (Link)

I don't think Buffy (or Willow or Xander) were treating it as a joke, or that Buffy would ever be amused by it. I think the writers were, though. Joss has said for years that it just wasn't meant to be that big of a deal -- Xander made a decision, it worked with the moment, everybody else moved on, except the fans. I think this mention, and the ba-DING rimshot of Willow saying "I didn't say that" were both a nod to the fans, and a tweak, because it's been five years since it's happened and all it gets is a one-off mention -- because we care more about it than Joss does.

But I'm of the "Xander made the decision with mostly no malice in his heart" camp -- because Angel *needed* to be killed, and knowing there was a chance he could be resouled might stop Buffy from fighting -- based on a season's worth of evidence that she'd already had problems with killing him. I don't see how Xander's decision or his right to make it then was any different from Buffy's in this ep.


Re:

bettyp

2002-10-22 11:23 pm (UTC) (Link)

I guess. I wouldn't call it a *malicious* decision, certainly. I was never comfortable with it for the simple reason that I think the Slayer, being the one who's taking on the full burden of stopping the apocalypse of the month, deserves to have all relevant information, and it irked me that Xander took it upon himself to decide what was good for her to know. I think it was the wrong call, but I do realize that it wasn't his Masterstroke of Evil Genius or anything.

However, I think it was different from "Selfless" in a number of ways -- one of which was the fact that Buffy's call was honest and above-board, and another is that, elitist bitch though it may make me, I do think that the Slayer has a better right to decide when to make a kill and when to hold off. *She's* the one doing the killing, *she's* the one who has the gifts and the responsibilities, and she's the one who has the head for tactics, not Xander. If Xander wants to get out there and kill all the Worms of Yadda Yadda and Crackatronic Demons or whatever that Anya is presumably going to continue summoning, then I might poll him for his opinion.

I realize that's not very populist of me, but there we are.

mpoetess

2002-10-23 06:45 am (UTC) (Link)

I agree with you that Buffy's call was straight out and involved no deception. I also think that it was the right call (except for the part where she didn't need to *kill* Anya to stop her, but I'm chalking that up to 'plot hole for dramatic purposes' and gritting my teeth). But I think Xander's call was the right call too -- because it wasn't about what Buffy *deserved* to know -- any more than Xander "deserved" a chance to talk Anya out of doing more vengeance. It was what he thought was safest when it was coming down to "Hey, if Buffy stalls to give Willow the chance to complete the spell, the *world* has a good chance of ending." Buffy had shown not hours ago that she was perfectly capable of being distracted by her feelings for Angel (good or bad) by being drawn out by him while Dru raided the library -- exactly according to his plan. Xander made a tactical call - and I think it was the right one. I'm not being populist either -- I'm saying, in that situation, the elitist choice was actually to have one person make the hard decision, and use the Slayer as a lethal weapon, instead of letting her make her own. Because in Xander's head, it was down to "The world gets destroyed, or she has all the information to make a decision she can live with. Hmmm."

wolfling

2002-10-23 07:28 am (UTC) (Link)

It strikes me as well (though I came into the fandom after season two and never was hung up on the whole Xander lied! He can't be forgiven for that! thing) that it was the type of tactical decision that would be expected to be made by a Slayer's Watcher.

Would Giles, if he had been in the position to do so, have made the same decision not to tell Buffy? I'm sure he at least would have considered it. And I can easily seeing him doing it. And, with what happened to Jenny, there would have also been a similar uncertainty about the motivation behind the decision.

However if it had been Giles who had decided that telling Buffy was too risky -- for her safety as well as the world's -- I don't think people would still be wanting to make him pay for it years later.

Becoming was high tragedy, but I don't think it's the kind that could be laid on anybody's doorstep. Because even if Xander had told her -- Buffy still would have had to fight Angelus to keep him from ending the world, Angelus still would have tried to open the portal and Buffy still would've had to kill him.

Re:

bettyp

2002-10-23 02:41 pm (UTC) (Link)

I'm a little intimidated by the idea of letting *Xander* do our tactical thinking for us, I guess. It's not so much his arena. Admittedly, at the time Buffy was a whole lot greener than she is now, too, but she is still the Slayer, and I think she's proven many times over that she functions best when she does her own planning.

mpoetess

2002-10-23 02:50 pm (UTC) (Link)

Hmm - point.

But though it's not so much his arena now, it really was then -- that was right when all that military knowledge was still fresh in his head.

Re:

bettyp

2002-10-23 03:08 pm (UTC) (Link)

I think it could be stretching a point to claim that Xander "Faster pussycat, kill, kill" Harris was operating strictly out of a crack military mindset at the time. But, you know, I think both things did play a part: his fear that Buffy wouldn't be fully committed to the fight if she knew there was still a chance to save Angel, and his deep-seated belief that Angel deserved to die anyway and that trying to save him was a fool's quest all along.

Personally, the point at which I wanted to hit Xander across the mouth was next season, when he said, "Most girls don't hop a Greyhound over boy troubles." Because, wow. How incredibly patronizing and dismissive, and I can't imagine why Buffy didn't want to hang around and receive Xander's brand of emotional support in her time of need. His attitude toward the whole situation was always "Get over it, already," and it kinda worked my nerves a lot. But hey, that's part of what I love about the show: there aren't any characters who always do or say exactly the right thing. They all bring their own baggage to the table

(Deleted comment)

mpoetess

2002-10-23 08:26 am (UTC) (Link)

Mmm - but as Saava pointed out -- destroying the necklace would undo the killings. Anya should have known that, since she knew destroying hallie's necklace would undo the OAFA wish. Buffy or Xander *could* have caught onto it, but didn't. Willow should have, without the necessity of summoning D'Hoffryn.

I agree that it might not be Buffy's job to think of the necklace -- but that's why Buffy should *not* be in complete charge of making the decisions on what's to be done.

Not so sure...

Anonymous

2002-10-23 03:55 pm (UTC) (Link)

Hi, Amy. Just so you don't think I'm weirdo stalker person, we corresponded a while back about Chocolatey Goodness.

I'm not so sure that destroying her power center would have undone the wish. There has to be a point when a wish is deemed completed, otherwise when Giles destroyed her power center before, all the wishes she'd ever granted, not just Cordelia's, would have been undone.

ClosetGirl's wish was fairly simple. She wished the frat boys could feel like their hearts had been torn out. Literal!Anya called up the spider demon which did just that. Wish completed, time to move on to the next one.

Cordelia's wish, however, set up a whole alternate timeline. So, even after Cordelia herself was killed, the wish was ongoing, maintaining the alternate universe. So, Giles was able to undo it by breaking the power center.

So, am I on to something, or am I just desperate to close up plot holes?

Jess

Re: Not so sure...

mpoetess

2002-10-23 08:39 pm (UTC) (Link)

*g* Hi, not weirdo stalker person.

Hmm. But *every* wish would create a new set of circumstances that could continue on indefinitely. Like the "turn Ronnie into a worm" wish. The Ronnie-worm could have killed Nancy and still be around to be undone by Anya's pendant being smashed. The heart-torn-out frat boys were dead, and the spider was still killing people -- Buffy and Xander found another body, outside when they were tracking it. So I'm not sure there's a "completed" so much as a "granted." My best guess on the pendant-smashing is that despite alt-Giles statement that it undoes all her wishes, it only undoes the most recent wish.

Re: Not so sure...

Anonymous

2002-10-24 12:02 pm (UTC) (Link)

Maybe it's a totally different issue. Anya's granting of Cordelia's wish was fairly straight-forward. She wished that Buffy had never come to Sunnydale. Anya granted the wish, and Buffy had never come to Sunnydale. So, when alt-Giles smashed the power-center, the wish was ungranted, Buffy had come to Sunnydale.

Similarly, Nancy's wish was that Ronnie become a worm. Anya went a little above and beyond and turned him into a demon worm, but he was still a worm. At the end of the episode, the wish wasn't actually reversed. Anya just turned him back into a real boy.

But, with Closet!Girl, Anya didn't really grant the stated wish. Closet!Girl's wish was only that FratBoy and Co. would feel like their hearts were torn out, not for them to die. Actually ripping out their hearts was Anya's own idea. Ungranting the wish as stated (by smashing the power center) would result in the FratBoys no longer feeling that their hearts had been ripped out. (Which, technically, they no longer did, since they were dead.) But Anya didn't want to just ungrant the wish. She wanted to undo what she did.

I think that's why she had to ask D'Hoffryn for help. If smashing the power center (which would have left her alive, if no longer a vengeance demon) would have done the trick, I think she would have thought of that. Instead, she had to ask D'Hoffryn to undo it, at the cost of what she thought would be her life.

I guess what it boils down to is that I have difficulty believing that Anya, with 1000+ years of experience in the wish-granting business, would choose a course as drastic as suicide if there was some other option.

Jess