Francine - harvest
I Blame the Dutch mpoetess
Previous Entry Share Next Entry
Huh - Spike, Dru, Sex, Petriecakes

Hijacking a [ahem, friends-protected, just realized] topic from a fellow writer's journal, in order not to hijack her actual journal:

The notion that Spike and Dru's post-slayer fiery city yummyagainsthewall sex was Spike's *first* sex with Dru? Is difficult for me to conceive of, despite Doug Petrie apparently making the statement that such was his thought/intent.

Thing one is, 20 years with Dru, and no sex? Given their chemistry, the mind boggles, but that's the easiest one to overcome, if one accepts that Spike is most definitely her bitch, and if she says no, (insert Spuffy comparison here) it damn well means no.

Thing two is, if not, why not?

If it was because he hadn't done enough to impress her until he killed a Slayer, it seems fairly odd. Angelus, after all, never killed a Slayer, and she was impressed enough with him. Okay, he was Daddy - I get that. But Spike sure as hell seemed to be doing his best to rival him in viciousness - I can see her not thinking him as *good* as Daddy, but not thinking him good enough for her at all, doesn't seem to mesh with what we saw. Spike was of her own choosing, nor does she seem disappointed with him in the mineshaft FFL scene, which was the same year as his turning.

If it was because she belonged exclusively to Angelus until 1900... well... Angelus *suggested* she make herself a playmate, because she was lonely, bored, wanted somebody to hurt her, and his mind was all full of Darla. Why exactly would he rapidly change his mind on that subject? Also, in the mineshaft scene, we got Dru saying (well, singing) "I think our boys are going to fight" to Darla. -- [Ah, no, Darla said it to Dru. Same point, though, really: *Darla* considered the men to belong either respectively or communally to the two of them.]

Thing three is, if not Dru, then who? I find it beyond belief that Spike was celibate for the 20 years between being turned in 1880 and his onscreen sex with Dru in 1900. I suppose he could've had random encounters with anyone - victims, other vamps, etc -- but that paints a fairly odd picture of their devoted relationship, if he's allowed to shag anybody but her. And if he was being shagged by Angelus.... then the logic (the one I can't fathom anyway) of Angelus keeping him away from Dru seems bizarre -- he's good enough for you to shag, and she's good enough for you to shag, but they can't shag each other? I could almost buy that it was a D/s thing, the more fun to torture them both, but.... Angelus didn't really seem like he had the *time* to be caring about such -- see above re obssessed with Darla phase.

And of course in figuring out the *writer's* logic, I'm not buying for a minute that *his* solution to who Spike was shagging for the first 20 years of his unlife, was Angelus.

Thoughts? People who do buy that the China scene was Spike and Dru's first sex, what do you guys think he was doing for the previous 20 years? Lo, entertain me with your ideas.


2002-11-07 03:14 pm (UTC) (Link)

YMMV. I was astounded when Herself first posited the theory that China was their first shag, but I don't think this goes explicitly against canon, and I have to admit that I've come to rather like the notion. It's rather sweet. In the fifth of the Bittersweets sequence she outlined her take on Spike's background thus:
She knew he kept the stocking to mark Drusilla’s erotic thrall over him, though it was severed now, and the cracked doll head as a remembrance of her madness. That the trophy of the Chinese Slayer commemorated not just his triumph over her but his attainment at last of Dru, after twenty frustrating years of being kept from her by Angelus. He explained how for two decades all his Grand-Sire had permitted him to do was mind her, clean up her various messes, keep her out of Darla’s hair. How he’d not been allowed to bed Dru—but was often there in bed while Angelus had her. Had them both, turn and turn about. Made to watch while he damn near turned Dru inside out . . . made to hold her down while Angelus gave her to strangers he’d met in the streets, men he’d eviscerate after they’d spent all the spunk that was in them . . . made to go down on her until his face ached and she’d fainted away and allowed no release until Angelus fucked him on his knees. He told it all not to hurt her, but because she’d seen those postcards, and was ready, at last, to hear all the truth. She seemed to listen with her eyes, which were huge, and which she kept bravely fixed on his as he told the story


2002-11-07 03:22 pm (UTC) (Link)

That's actually one of the two Bittersweets stories I've read so far (the other being Littler Bit) -- and yeah -- I can buy that interpretation, in fic. Find it theoretically easy to buy, because I'm always willing to go with the answer that includes S/Aus sex.

I do find it hard to believe such was the canonical intent, though -- for me, that's a suspension of disbelief I'm happy to make because I'm much more pleased by the Big (un)Happy Family theory of how the beds were shared, than the Obssessed With Darla and somewhat dismissive of Dru retconnish vine I got from Darla


2002-11-07 03:23 pm (UTC) (Link)

Sigh. vibe. not vine.


2002-11-07 03:26 pm (UTC) (Link)

I think Petrie is mental, but that said -- Dru plays with him does not necessarily equate to he plays with her. I think that's the way out of this cul de sac.

Maybe she teased him unmercifully but refused to consummate? Or FFL could be the first time they were together as equals, where he wasn't submitting to her; the first time they had penetrative sex as opposed to him just pleasing her and then wanking away furiously himself; the first time he was allowed to come inside her; the first time they were together on his schedule and initative, not hers; the first time they had sex alone, without the supervision/instruction of Angelus and/or Darla.

I could buy any or all of those, at least in fanfic. I can't buy that bored, neglected Dru made herself a playmate who she considered a fair knight, and then spent 20 years not enjoying his services, while rebellious William the Bloody placidly put up with not getting any.

And hell, maybe Petrie did mean Angelus was screwing Spike, even if he can't make it explicit for network reasons. It would make more sense, in a way. With Daddy gone they'd both be frustrated, and ripe for Spike to take over as the man of the family.



2002-11-07 04:35 pm (UTC) (Link)

Yes, I agree, there's a million ways to take "hadn't had sex/made love" that make it ture, yet don't mean there was no sexual contact at all. Herself's take on that certainly goes that way -- it was about Spike not having had solo, she does something for me, I get to be in her, sex with Dru - but he'd certainly had sexual contact with her. I wish I had access to the DVD transcript, just to know exactly what Petrie said -- but it's a passing wish, since it's not going to change my agreement with you that yeah, he's mental.

My "as long as they don't say anything to deny it, it's still true" belief is that, as Kita said, they were all doing each other. Mind you, I can't see Spike having had access to *Darla* by herself unless a) they were all in the same bed/steaming pile of corpses b) Angelus approved or c) Darla was trying to piss Angel off. I say this purely on what I suspect her feelings or lack thereof about Spike were, though.


2002-11-08 06:18 am (UTC) (Link)

Yeah, I'm with you on the Spike/Darla thing. And I suspect the indifference was pretty mutual.



2002-11-08 07:04 am (UTC) (Link)

Though Peasant has a lovely (pre-FFL canon) Angelus/Spike story wherein Darla and Spike strike up a friendship, of sorts.


2002-11-08 07:39 am (UTC) (Link)

That's rather sweet, actually. Which is proof that the vampires have warped my vocabulary past all repair.



2002-11-07 03:28 pm (UTC) (Link)

I think he had access to Drusilla in every way but intercourse. Why? Because Angelus was a fucking bastard, that's why. And I don't think it would have taken any "time" or energy on his part to enforce this. Drusilla wanted to please Daddy. This was the rule. End of story. I can totally see Spike TRYING and Dru either saying no, or even telling Angelus on him. In my little world, yea, Angelus fucked Spike. But if you want total het? He still could have beaten the crap out of the boy just for fun every night. If he had a reason to, all the better. As for "our boys", well, check the flipside. Angelus: "You have me and MY WOMEN hiding in a mineshaft." That sums it up for me.


2002-11-07 03:35 pm (UTC) (Link)

I can buy it if there's slash, but the het explanation just doesn't work for me -- because I can't see Spike putting up with it for 20 years, with no sexual access to *anyone* important to him. The Spike we saw in the FFL mine scene wasn't cowed by Angelus, and yeah, he would probably stick around for Dru, rather than storming off in a huff, but Total Bastard Angelus, 100% of the time, just doesn't play for me.


2002-11-07 03:39 pm (UTC) (Link)

Personally I think we ought to accept as canon that they were all fucking one another. It's damn near been stated in any interview re the Fanged Four. All that talk of 'incest' and how everything Spike did he did to be more like Angelus, and I'm sorry but it just doesn't GET any more slashworthy than Spike getting every woman Angel(us) ever had AFTER Angelus was finished with them. Then the whole "Sire" thing- I mean, Spike sure as hell never called DRU "Sire". Hm. Maybe Petrie is an A/S Shipper. *G* Fury is admitted S/D.


2002-11-07 03:44 pm (UTC) (Link)

Addendum, not necessarily related to the China question -- TB!Angelus doesn't play for me -esp. in slash -- because I don't see what's in it for Spike to have a relationship with him, if he truly doesn't like it. Torn, tortured, tormented, I buy. But if it comes down to Spike not on some level having *fun* because of it? Nah. The reason a Dom, even a wildly rough, sadistic son of a bitch Dom, gets someone,esp someone like Spike, to sub for him in the first place, is that there's *something* in there that makes it worthwhile for the sub.


2002-11-07 03:31 pm (UTC) (Link)

I had suggested that very idea right after seeing FFL, although I never really believed it. Dru is very picky about the evilness quotient of her lovers, and she seems to believe-- whether it's true or not, given Spike's slayer-slayage-- that Angelus has more evilness in his little finger than Spike in his whole body. She doesn't seem disappointed with early Spike, but she doesn't seem impressed until the Boxer Rebellion, so she might have waited until she deemed him worthy. So there's a possibility that 1) Spike wasn't having sex with Drusilla, although possibly with Angelus or Darla or anyone else he pleased; he was meant to be an amusement and occupation but not a lover. Not buying that as it's made clear that Angelus had lost interest in Dru sexually ("you won't even hurt me a little bit"). Or 2) they did have sex, but only with Angelus' permission, or even only in his presence; he would have wanted to keep some measure of control over their relationship. So yeah, I could buy it either way, but my vote's on pre-China sex. However, I think that night was a turning point for their relationship in every way, including sexually.


2002-11-07 03:39 pm (UTC) (Link)

*nod* I don't discount the idea that there was a major change in the S/D relationship after he killed his first Slayer. If for no other reason than Mummy's boy's all grown up now. And the fact that she obviously found it incredibly hot. ;)


2002-11-07 03:40 pm (UTC) (Link)

Petrie's smoking the DBActor crack. I read the transcript of his comments and he clearly doesn't know what he's talking about with other stuff too. Case in point, he talks about how Dru was the one who thought Spike was the first random loser to walk by and DP's own theories as to whether Dru therefore actually ever thought of Spike as a fine knight or whatnot. Great theories, Doug, except for the fact that it was Darla who made the loser comment, not Dru.

He's got errors like that all over the transcript. The whole thing struck me a lot like reading an actor interview - nice if you want their theories as to what's going on, but in no way at all canonical.


2002-11-07 04:05 pm (UTC) (Link)

Petrie's smoking the DBActor crack.



2002-11-07 10:45 pm (UTC) (Link)

I don't think it was Dru and Spike's first time. I'm sure there was a lot of communal licking and sucking going on in that little quartet. Or maybe I just hope it.

I think it was the first time that sex meant something for the two of them, because it was after he'd killed the Slayer that Dru finally saw Spike as more than a plaything she'd plucked off the street. He wasn't a weakling constantly trying to prove himself anymore; he'd finally passed the bad ass cool guy test.

Spike hasn't changed a bit. He's still looking for challenges and trying to prove himself to the woman he loves.


2002-11-08 05:45 am (UTC) (Link)

mmm...communal licking and sucking... Did you say something?

Yeah -- I definietly see that scene as being Spike finally worthy of her ... well, with Dru, her obssession, rather than just he amusement.


2002-11-08 12:49 pm (UTC) (Link)

If Angelus limited Spike's access to the women - that doesn't necessarily mean twenty years of wanking. Spike could always have sex as part of the hunt, play with the food before killing it... It wouldn't be meaningful sex, obviously. The lack of meaningful sex would make the conquering of Dru's sexual affection more pivotal.