Francine - harvest
I Blame the Dutch mpoetess
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Bibble, because the Spike shit is getting to me.
But the Spike shit always gets to me. Y'all know that.



See, I get the concept of "Warren did bad things with a soul, Willow did bad things with a soul." But I think it's a bit... simplistic.

Or maybe, it's a bit of an easy rationalization for those who *want* to see Spike go kickass, S2 neck-chomping evil again.

Yes, Willow and Warren -- and Rack presumably -- and Saddam Hussein, did bad things, with a soul. Could be spurred to do evil, even with a human soul.

But those souls? They were along for the ride. When Warren went bad? When Willow slid further and further over the line? Those souls were right there with them. Being corrupted.

Spike's? Worst case, it's brand new. Most likely, given his ramblings, it's William's soul. It wasn't *there* for everything evil Spike's done. Wasn't even there for the assault in Seeing Red, when he was theoretically acting more out of human madness than demonic evil. The William part of him? Seems appalled by what he's done. The most William's soul was ever corrupted was... what? Two seconds of looking into Drusilla's eyes?

I'm not saying Te's story, for instance, isn't plausible -- William being a creature of great weakness, giving in to power over himself and lack of confusion? Utterly possible. We don't know. We've only seen him be...mediocre. According to himself. Spikeself. Though imho, confessing the truth to Cecily about his feelings for her was actually fairly brave, in his own Victorian cosmology.

But the argument by itself, that's floating around? That the soul is *no* reason to assume Spike wouldn't go back to killing? I don't buy it. I don't buy it on a logical angle, not on an Amy Can't Bear Spike To Be Evil angle. William's soul, as it was when he died? *Nothing* like Warren's soul. Nothing like Willow's at the point when she went over the edge.

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kita0610

2002-11-15 07:06 pm (UTC) (Link)

God, I just want it to be---something *different.*

Not Evil!S2Spike is back. Not DevoursYourAssDemon'Bot'!Spike.

Something...else.

mpoetess

2002-11-15 07:26 pm (UTC) (Link)

*nod* I wouldn't mind that either. Though I don't know *what* else would be possible.

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mpoetess

2002-11-15 07:35 pm (UTC) (Link)

Sure - and we saw Darla as she was before she died. Sick, disillusioned with life, with humanity, with God. Darla was the vamp we've come closest to seeing accept the demon willingly, the first time around. So if we're talking about corrupt souls here, Darla's was visibly pretty far gone when she died.

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mpoetess

2002-11-15 09:37 pm (UTC) (Link)

2nd time around Darla also wasn't a vampire who was dealing with demon + human brain + soul = what?

She was a human, with a human soul, no demon, who'd apparently been driven insane by being re-created, with her vampire memories intact. An interesting comparison to Spike's situation now, certainly, but I don't think we can call it a parallel -- there's no control group here.

mpoetess

2002-11-15 09:47 pm (UTC) (Link)

Hrrm - if anything, Human!Darla v 2.0 would seem more comparable to Buffy, season 6. Dealing with being alive and mortal again when she didn't want to be.

maybeshedoes

2002-11-18 01:13 am (UTC) (Link)

I don't think Darla and Buffy are really comparable since Darla doesn't remember anything about her death (post-staking, not post-1601) and is glad to be alive again. She fights not to die. She went nuts from the syphilis (or that was my impression, could be totally misunderstanding it).

mpoetess

2002-11-18 01:29 pm (UTC) (Link)

Not quite, at least that's not the impression I got --

Darla doesn't want to be alive -- she wants to be undead. She hates the soul with a fiery passion. That's before she knows she's sick again, as far as I know -- she just doesn't want to be *human*. Doesn't want to care, doesn't want to feel human emotions. There was never any implicatin that the syphillis made her insane, even when she was on her deathbead the first time -- it was a syphillitic heart condition that was killing her. Lindsey didn't mention any mental deterioration, and in fact she grew *more* sane (well, more normal behaving) as she got more used to being human again.

I agree that Buffy remembered heaven, and thus didn't want to be alive because she's rather be there. I submit that 2nd-time-human Darla remembers being a *vampire* and thus doesn't want to be alive (literally) because she'd arther be immortal and uncaring. Just as Buffy would rather be cocooned in safe-warm-heaven and not have to worry about her friends or anyone else because she "knows" they're all right.

So my general point was, Darla's "sociopathic" (which I don't think it was; it was more desperate denial that as a human again, she *wasn't* the sociopath that her vampire self was) behavior was more akin to Buffy-unwillingly-back-from-Heaven, and less akin to anything we can predict about Spike's willingly-received soul that was nowhere near as tarnished as Darla's had been before she died the first time.

estepheia

2002-11-19 04:12 am (UTC) (Link)

Sorry, I come into this discussion a little late - I haven't caught up with my friends' entries for a few days.

I agree that Spike's soul seems to be the old one. A little bit rusty and old-fashioned. If it's really the super-ego (in Freudian terms) then the set of rules that finally has a voice in Spike's head again is pretty rigid. I don't think it's a voice that advocates easy solutions.

Willow, Warren and William are supposed to be compared. Three ostracised nerds who get a taste of power, but what they truly hunger for, that's the great difference. All were subjected to scorn, derision and rejection, and all were damaged by it. Warren grew into a twisted resentful creep, Willow was lucky to have friends like Buffy, Xander and Oz and was able to exorcise most (but not all) of that damage. William was put into a frame of mind where he would have accepted anything that made him feel wanted. He might have snapped out of it again and turned into someone like Willow, or he might have become twisted like Warren. As it happened he turned into something different, but even as a vampire he retained the willingness to be inspired.

Eeek, I was going to ramble on a bit and talk more about souls and whatnot, but my little one has an ear infection and needs me just now to cuddle. Sorry about that. Maybe I'll add something later...