Francine - harvest
I Blame the Dutch mpoetess
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Officially Marking It Somewhere
Since I'm not about to bitch about it on the list.


Sometimes BBF drives me *fucking* nuts.

And there's a difference between "I'm not sure how to write this anymore" and "the love is gone."

And I'm not sure if anybody noticed this, but pre Anna reccing S/X pieces (and thus apparently making it ok, and god Anna I love you and I love your work but if people don't stop deciding that slash/[S/X] is cool now because *you* like it, I'm going to scream and stomp and scream some more, 'kay? And then suck my thumb) on the list? You know how often they were recced?

This is *not* a popular pairing when it comes to being recced in cross-fandom arenas. Just because y'all are annoyed with the proliferation of it in the last couple of *months* -- which happened because a well-respected bifictional writer started recommending it and so the rest of us felt we could maybe come out of the closet on a list that has previously *not* been welcoming to slash (you think you have, but you haven't) -- does *not* make it the flood-the-airwaves pairing that you actually have to call a "Non-S/X recs day" for. Get a fucking grip.

Hi. I may be a bit cranky.

(Deleted comment)


2002-12-12 07:37 am (UTC) (Link)

Better Buffy Fics, the cross-buffyverse recs mailing list.

Sometimes they're a fascinating group of people to talk with, and sometimes they make me want to throw things. Admittedly, this is true of almost any mailing list.


2002-12-12 07:32 am (UTC) (Link)

Maybe there needs to be a slash BBF, and a het BBF. And a gen BBF.

Im not volunteering to own them. :-)

Er - chocolate?


2002-12-12 07:38 am (UTC) (Link)



2002-12-12 08:37 am (UTC) (Link)

It's always Milka.


2002-12-12 07:40 am (UTC) (Link)


*feeds MP gourmet hot cocoa*

Um ... but hasn't Anna been writing and rec-ing slash for years? X-Files, Sentinel, Stargate? Or is this a different Anna? Or is it because she's not been slashing Buffy characters before now?

*thanks lucky stars I don't belong to any lists; I do not have the spiritual fortitude for it*


2002-12-12 07:45 am (UTC) (Link)

Yeah, I'm assuming it's because she hasn't been writing/reccing Buffy slash before now, or at least not vocally -- most of the Buffy people who didn't follow her in from other fandoms (not necessarily came to Buffy because Anna came here, but rather, knew her from other fandoms and read her work for that reason) know her from her Buffy/Spike work, which is deservedly well-loved.


2002-12-12 07:51 am (UTC) (Link)

Saw that. Had the same reaction. Yours was better said. Actually got *extremly* annoyed at the "love is gone" post because. . . this person *obviously* does not get the story. And I found it mildly insulting. Or maybe more than mildly. Debated on writing something in response, figured a flame-war was probably not a good idea and instead bit my lip and ranted to someone else (Lumenara, who is precious). I only joined recently, but I noticed how slash was generally not very welcome. . .

They're having a non-s/x day? The hell? How many s/x pieces are actually being recced here, other than the five or so people who decided they would babble about it? I mean, there was A Long Time, but. . . in the past week or so, I can't think of anything at all s/x or even remotely slashy and. . .

I like this list, but I think right now I'd like to choke it.

Can I jump up and down and scream with you?


2002-12-12 08:14 am (UTC) (Link)

They're not really (at least, not yet) having a "Non S/x Day" but the subject came up, batted forth with "nonconventional pairings" and "Oh, we can't call s/x conventional, can we, so maybe we should change it to nonpopular pairings" and "or how about pairings that don't include Spike?"

And the "Here's some recs that *aren't* spuffy or s/x" post that got on my tits so hard I wanted to scream. How hard is it to say "Here's some gen and Giles/Willow recs" or even "Well, I'm not into the Spuffy or s/x, so I thought I'd share some of what interests me, today" instead of heading a *post* with the fact that it's *not* ... pairing X.

The TWOP recs thread is so heavily pro-Spuffy it's mind-boggling (that a theoretically cross-buffyverse posting board would have collected that big a percentage of Spuffy lovers over other ships, not that there's anything mind-boggling about liking Spuffy). Do I go in there guns blazing and post a rec with the subject heading "Finally! Some non-Spuffy fic! I can't be the only one who's tired of it, can I?" No. Not the way to win friends and influence people.

(moreover, yeah, there was a huge dearth of non spuffy/spander recs on the list, considering there'd been at least 6 gen or other-pairing recs just since *lunch*)

(edited because I realize I'm bitching madly, and would like not to add "appears not to be able to spell" to the profile.)


2002-12-12 08:44 am (UTC) (Link)

(edited because I realize I'm bitching madly, and would like not to add "appears not to be able to spell" to the profile.)

Spelling is overrated :)


2002-12-12 04:50 pm (UTC) (Link)

As the person who sent the 'NON- Spuffy or X/S recs' post in the first place, I feel I really need to defend myself here.

The post wasn't a character or a 'ship bash, and it wasn't a complaint. It was in part a joke, but otherwise simply a reaction that a lot of stuff was being posted on the list on the same kinds of subjects recently and since it's not a Spuffy or X/S list I was making a small move to start a discussion about things that interested those of us that aren't enamoured of those pairings. I didn't say 'please stop posting about these ships' and in fact I made no move at all to exclude those 'ships. That suggestion was made by someone else, and in any case it was made in a non-inflammatory fashion and suggested as a novelty only. My response was a joke about a non-Spike day which somebody apparently took seriously and an agreement that, yes, I thought a UC/rare pairings day would be a very cool idea.

I don't see how the suggestion of a rare pairings day to set one day aside for the minor ships that often do get excluded is detrimental at all for those who like the popular pairings in question, which after all don't seem to need that much defending, at least from where I'm standing.

X/S may not always have been so but it currently seems a very, very strong pairing with a large following. BBF has tended of late (ie. at least the last 12 months or so) to be very Spuffy-biased. In the last 2-3 months this has extended to X/S, for whatever reason - and I don't know the facts behind that, since I largely am not interested in that 'ship I tend to only skim through the posts that involve it. I'm unsure where you're coming from on this or why you're so angry, especially since the thread gained few enough positive responses and in fact seems to have died a death already, and the 'ships involved continue to be recced onlist. I mean, next to the pairings I like, X/S is massive - shouldn't it be a good thing when your pairing is so popular people are saying 'please, no more'?

I'd also like to add that that post, thanks to yahoo, appeared hours after I originally sent it, so I think there was only actually one non-X/S rec in the midst of a whole sea of them at the time.

On another note, I'm not sure in what way BBF has not been welcoming to slash. I know I've recced slash there and read slash from there before, although more often f/f, and there have been quite a few slashers regularly reccing there for a long time. And one of the so reviled non-Spuffy-non-X/S recs was slash.


2002-12-12 06:50 pm (UTC) (Link)

Okay. *deep breath*. Came across discussion on ladycat777's LJ where you actually mention some of the above and the fact that the non-Spike (and it was non-Spike, I don't recall discussion of excluding X/S specifically, joking or otherwise) was part-jest and I consequently figured the comment I read and took as an attack probably wasn't meant that way. Realised how long ago this post and most of the discussion had taken place (being in the UK messes me up with the times). Felt basically a bit of a prat and was afraid I came on a bit strong in the previous comment.

In any case, the thread was posted as non-Spuffy and X/S recs in a specific attempt to start a non-Spuffy and X/S thread of recs to run parallel to the discussion of those ships (it didn't work). That was why the 'non' heading. It wasn't meant to offend or attempt to exclude those pairings.

Having read a bit more around related discussion - though I'm not sure how much of this is in reference to that thread or the other one onlist that I'll admit I largely tuned out of several posts back - I wanted to add that it never occurred to me that the slash vs het would be an issue. I read any/all and I often forget, since I don't actually write slash myself (probably should add here a tentative 'yet'), that there is still any prejudice about slash as a genre. Similarly, I've never felt BBF had a problem regarding slash, but then I would not be someone likely to notice a subtle problem for the same reasons above. It never occurred to me that voicing anything that could be construed anti-X/S could come across as anti-slash.

I'm still not quite clear on the BBF as anti-slash idea, though. I don't believe I apologised for reccing Fred/Lilah. Or for Buffy/Faith, last week.

But I hope this clears some things up.


2002-12-13 12:59 pm (UTC) (Link)

To the anti-slash thing--

You stumped me with that last, because you're right, and it hadn't occurred to me. People don't tend to add the 'it's slash but' disclaimers to femslash.

I'm tempted to be a huge geek and look at what the actual stats are -- slash stories recced, number of those that contain some kind of apologia for it being slash, number of those that are m/m slash vs. f/f, number of the non-apologetic ones that are from people who primarily *write* slash... And the other set of stats -- how many S/X recs have really been made in the last month or so, vs Spuffy, vs other types. Because it may be that my perceptions are vastly off, and I'm seeing through the lens of "There can never be enough of what *I* like." Or maybe they aren't, and folk who think there's a huge proportion are seeing through the same lens. Or something in the middle.

But that would make me far more obssessed and geeky than I like to admit to being. ;-)


2002-12-13 03:54 pm (UTC) (Link)

In all honesty? I'd be really interested to see the stats, too. I will freely admit to being obsessed and geeky enough to do it without shame. But unfortunately I am also far too lazy...

But I did have a brief glance. I think the X/S has come in bursts, a handful of enthusiastic discussions with droughts in between. Less than I'd have thought, but still probably second to Spuffy, recently at any rate, and the Spuffy is a constant tirade. But in retrospect I think I should've written 'non-Spike recs' had I done this research beforehand... The list is predominantly Spike/everything but the kitchen sink. And it's infuriating at times - even the Buffy/Faith, Wes/Faith thread mutated into Spike/Faith, for cryin' out loud, which was just cruel.

It has to be said, it's a hard, harsh world if you don't like Spike... :)

(Actually, I don't dislike the character, the current season even has me intrigued about him - I'm just severely lukewarm on him, don't understand the fuss, and I'd rather read other things. But that's beside the point.)

I remember clearly that the list used to be apologetic about slash recs in the way you describe. More recently, that has turned around a lot, I would say, but maybe it retains the stigma of its past reputation.


2002-12-13 12:50 pm (UTC) (Link)


The post wasn't a character or a 'ship bash, and it wasn't a complaint. It was in part a joke,

I got that there was humorous intent to the post (and the following ones), but was feeling touchy already because of the [unrelated] discussion wherein one poster assumed she knew my reasons for writing/not-writing my WIP. And the resulting digression into "Well OBVIOUSLY the solution is to not write WIPs." Um, yeah -- but that's as helpful as a handful of oatmeal, when said WIP is the first/second thing you ever wrote in the fandom, back when you didn't know any better.

So [looks around for point] the humorous intent seemed more snide than it was, on rereading, being in a less obnoxious mood.

That said, from the POV of someone who does like [one of -- I'm anything but a Spuffy fan] those 'ships, a post that's headed with "Some NOT [Your Ship] Recs" seemed like a dig, more than just an attempt to provide an alternate thread of conversation -- because the only words in the Subject Line that pertained to type-of-story were "Spuffy" and "S/X." The first people that's going to catch the eye of are not Lilah fans or Doyle/Wes shippers or Buffy/Faith shippers or genfic fans -- because none of those is mentioned in the subject line. It's going to catch the eye of Spuffy fans and S/X fans.

Those people who normally scan through and delete anything with those two phrases...Well, realistically, they're going to notice the "not" and be interested and open it -- but I submit that they're not going to be the first people to do so, because the S/X and Spuffy fans will be opening it going "So what does she have against our preferences that she needs to label whatever she's reccing as specifically not that?"

I get that nothing like that was your intention; that was just my immediate reaction to it, which when coupled with the resulting discussion, amde me feel like people were saying "Oh, you people are the big popular group -- you can take the potshots. What's the big deal?"

And I can't speak for Spuffy fans, but having not *been* a part of the big popular group for very long, because it's big, but outside of its membership it really hasn't been that popular, and inside of its membership are a lot of people who like the ship but can't write to save their lives... My rant was basically a "No, we're not some huge invading army, and yes, I'm happy that people are reccing stuff I like to read -- finally -- but that makes the 'please, no more' posts seem *more* like pissing on the picnic, not less."



2002-12-13 05:19 pm (UTC) (Link)

I've been trying hard to repress much of what I saw of the guilt/WIP thread.

If I'm being honest, then yes, I'll admit the list post probably had some element of a guilty 'this isn't a Spuffy or X/S list and it gets annoying when it's being treated like it is' snipe in there alongside the jokiness. Because there were times the last few days when I've wanted to rant about BBF, too. And so when my brain started along the tracks of 'wouldn't it be kinda funny to...' a short while after, the idea inevitably had those thoughts behind it too, even if they weren't the main ones.

Plus, it was 2am and I was in a tired, silly mood. I really didn't want to character bash - I hate character bashing - I tried to be careful with what I said in the post so it wouldn't offend and, well, screwed that one up. I don't have a good track record with these things, unfortunately. I still however think that when there've been over a dozen X/S related posts in the last few hours, labelling a post as Non-X/S in jest isn't so terrible a thing to do.

I blame Yahoo, actually. Yes. They are responsible for most of the world's evils...

I didn't at any point request people stop posting Spuffy and X/S recs nor feel I had any right to. I didn't say 'please, no more' or anticipate the responses that did. The non-Spike day was one-hundred-percent a joke. It's too close to character bashing to seriously say you're excluding a character for the day. The UC/rare idea was different and acceptable to my mind because under ordinary circumstances people do still send normal posts to BBF on their theme days if they want to, so that wasn't a move to exclude or squash current popular pairings and current discussion but genuinely to give attention to stuff that might usually not receive it.

"Oh, you people are the big popular group -- you can take the potshots. What's the big deal?"

I can't deny I've thought exactly this. I suppose it depends on where you're standing. Most of the things discussed about the relatively new exposure of X/S in the last day or so I was unaware of when I made the post. I've been aware for a while that it was popular and plentiful, and that is all.


2002-12-13 05:59 pm (UTC) (Link)

The UC/rare idea was different and acceptable to my mind because under ordinary circumstances people do still send normal posts to BBF on their theme days if they want to, so that wasn't a move to exclude or squash current popular pairings and current discussion but genuinely to give attention to stuff that might usually not receive it.

And fwiw -- and I think I probably gave the opposite impression when I got all ranty -- I'm all for a "Best stories you're not reading" or "underrepresented genres/pairings/authors" day. I think it's a great idea. And given the prevalence of S/X recs recently, I'd certainly agree that it's *not* underrepresented. :)


2002-12-12 09:19 am (UTC) (Link)

*chuckle* I enjoy reading through the TWOP Buffy fic boards for recs, but I've never posted there, in large part because I'm afraid that my first reaction would be, "Hi, y'all seem like nice people, and some of these recs have made my day, but are you aware that there exists fic not about Spuffy?"

Honestly, though, I thought S/X was a fairly well-established slash pairing from at least S4 forward, especially if you count S/X/A in there. Since I started watching the show in S4 and reading fic during the summer before S5, well... I'm still a little baffled that the appeal of S/X is supposed to be a novelty. Not that S7 hasn't added to its plausibility. ;)


2002-12-12 10:14 am (UTC) (Link)


It is a very well established slash pairing, but among the folk who aren't primarily slash fans, it doesn't have a lot of popularity relative to other slash pairings. I.e., if you were to poll people who say "Slash isn't my major thing, but I don't mind reading a good story," S/X would not usually come up as the pairing they're likely to read. Mostly because the bulk of S/X fiction has a reputation of containing fanon that ranges from annoying to nauseating. It's a deserved reputation.

In slashdom, it's very popular if you mean "has a lot of people writing it and reading it" -- but those tend to be people who *only* like/write S/X. Again, go out to the "read all kinds of slash" people, and S/X is the pariah pairing, because of the huge library of utter crap that's been produced in it. It's the pairing for people who don't care about canon or characterization or even the use of a spellcheck. It's the pairing where evil-bitch-buffy reigns supreme (or did -- that seems to be dying down a bit now), sexually abused Xander is tenderly cared for by a Spike who's aghast that people could do such horrible things, and righteously indignant with the Scoobies for never noticing and abandoning Xande rto his fate... I could go on.

There *is* good stuff being written -- maybe even a larger percentage of it now. But it has a generally bad rep, and for the swingaround to come this quickly, from "Oh, *that* pairing" to "Hey, Anna likes it, let's check it out!" to "God, you people talk about nothing else, I'm so sick of the uber-popular S/X bandwagon" is....mystifying. And grating. It implies that these stories have been recced to high heaven and we should shut the hell up about them, when in fact, they haven't.

(Deleted comment)


2002-12-12 11:31 am (UTC) (Link)


I (and I would, of course) think there's a there there if one looks for it, but I also think a shitload of S/X shippy writers haven't looked for it, and aren't presenting it. Or there's a there that can be created, I suppose. I wouldn't presume to expect people who honestly just aren't turned on by the pairing to expend the effort to do so, though. Why should they?

I'm sure there *are* people who don't read it simply because it doesn't interest them, it doesn't turn them on, it doesn't intrigue them, it doesn't seem to have any canonical tension or conflicts to explore -- everything you've said. And every pairing (and theme and style, etc) has a library of crap to its name. But I think in btvs slash, X/S does have a greater reputation for said library. Spuffy probably has a similar rep in the purely het sphere -- but I think (and admittedly TWOP is most of my experience with Spuffy fans/recs/fic) that it's mitigated somewhat by a much more well known selection of very good fic.

I think I've actually stopped complaining and am just trying to analyze now. This is always dangerous.


2002-12-12 12:05 pm (UTC) (Link)

Since I started watching the show in S4 and reading fic during the summer before S5, well... I'm still a little baffled that the appeal of S/X is supposed to be a novelty.

That's pretty much when I started too -- but then, summer after season 4 was the heydey of S/X fic. There'd been the domestic situation during S4, Xander and Anya weren't as 'Whoa, damn, we have a Relationship' as they later became, Spike was ship-free... A lot of readers -- and viewers - have poured in since then, though,who cut their teeth on Spike's obssession with Buffy in S5 and/or actual relationship in S6, plus the incredibly antagonistic (not in a sexy way) relationship between Xander and Spike in S6.The pairing probably seems farfetched at best to many of those folks.


2002-12-12 01:16 pm (UTC) (Link)



*throws you naked choc-dipped xan/spike*



2002-12-13 01:15 pm (UTC) (Link)



2002-12-12 04:20 pm (UTC) (Link)

Damn, girl. Get off the fence and tell us: How do you really feel? ;} I love the smell of a good rant in the afternoon.

But, I have to admit, I am one of those fans who has issues with Spike just because some of his fen make me want to hit things. And it really is hard to find a list, message board, etc. where that character is not center stage in some way. So I can't relate there, sorry.

As to the "X/S slash is now cool cause Anna rec'd it"- I can see why it would be frustrating. But it's not like your stuff hasn't been rec'd all to heck before now. And obviously, folks are still reading and enjoying it from the (misguided though it was) conversation about CG (and DOOUL- not sure why anyone thinks I feel *guilty* over not writing it anymore). So, I'm sorry if this doesn't come out as sympathetic, because I do feel sympathetic to the cause here, but can you at least enjoy the sudden onslaught of recs for your favorite pairing? Goddamn, if someone suddenly rec'd 10 thousand A/S fics somewhere I think I would drop from joy. Hell. If someone WROTE any I would drop from joy- but I digress.

Anyway, perhaps this post goes more toward the "you're a hot mama but you make me insane" Meme, eh? Sorry. Sigh. I'll go away now and be away.


2002-12-13 01:14 pm (UTC) (Link)

But, I have to admit, I am one of those fans who has issues with Spike just because some of his fen make me want to hit things.

I get that. I have issues with Buffy because some of her fen make me want to hit things, and it's hard to separate those from my actual issues with Buffy, which are legion.

But I don't post to an open-subject recs list/board -- whether it's been Buffy/Spuffy/whatever heavey recently or not -- saying "God I'm sick of this trend, let's talk about something else." If I want to talk about something else, I try the novel method of... talking about something else. If no one seems to listen because they're still over there talking about that thing I'm not interested in, it's probably a sign that they're...really interested in it, and bitching loudly that it's boring is just possibly going to annoy them.

So, I'm sorry if this doesn't come out as sympathetic, because I do feel sympathetic to the cause here, but can you at least enjoy the sudden onslaught of recs for your favorite pairing?

Yes. Absolutely. I'm overjoyed. And I'm not worried about whether my stuff has been recced or not recced or trashed or forgotten. Except in the egomanical way that all writers are, so that last sentence is bullshit. But I'm not primarily concerned about mememememe and why haven't I received enough attention. The impulse to kick at the gravel and say "You know, there were folks writing good shit here before the Beautiful People decided to move in" is a childish one, and I recognise that.