Francine - harvest
I Blame the Dutch mpoetess
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GIP, and Wank
Because I'm incapable of not being wanky while away from my own pc, apparently.

So I say? Buffy and Spike had a tender, humorous, happy ending...in that episode we all missed. Buffy admitted she loved him when he wasn't dying and in a way that he actually believed... in that episode we all missed. Angel and Cordelia made narrative and characterizational sense... in that episode we all missed. Dawn and Connor met... in that episode we all missed. Xander said Angel was an attractive man and Spike was compact but well-muscled, and Angel kissed Spike on the forehead, and alternate universe Doyle passed his visions on to Angel instead of Cordy... in that episode we all -- oh. Wait.

Really. Sour. Fucking. Grapes.Collapse )

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minim_calibre

2003-08-31 03:49 pm (UTC) (Link)

OMG! He's givin' it to XANDER of ALL PEOPLE!!!

U SIKKOS NEED 2 GET SOME DIK!!!

(Am I writing Buffy/Faith and Tara/Glory because I'm not getting any cunt?)

(Because I'm bound and FUCKING determined to bring up the femslash, yes I am.)

(Heh. And I don't think I've ever written Spike givin' rather than gettin'.)

thebratqueen

2003-08-31 04:00 pm (UTC) (Link)

Yeah, one has to love the theory that we write about two men getting it on because we need dick. Under this assumption when I'm hungry I serve food to other people.

(no subject) - gairid, 2003-08-31 04:09 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - minim_calibre, 2003-08-31 04:13 pm (UTC) (Expand)

sweet_ali

2003-08-31 04:08 pm (UTC) (Link)

Just a visitor on your journal and is it really arrogant to respond to your post by linking to my own journal?

Um, it is?

Oh well: http://www.livejournal.com/users/sweet_ali/66825.html

All in all, very much agreeing with you:)

spicklething

2003-08-31 04:47 pm (UTC) (Link)

Hopped to this post from Kita's LJ...

I hate Isabelle's assumption that a gen reader/spuffy fan is betraying everything good and proper in the Buffyverse for liking slash. Granted, I do have issues with people suddenly hopping on the slash bandwagon because they perceive it as ooooh, must write it since all the cool kids are do it even if they personally don't like slash or don't understand it. To me, that motive has nothing to do with storytelling, and more to do with personal egoboo in the constant search for adoration. I'm not saying all new slashers fall into this mold, but I do question those who go on and on about how they don't like slash, will never write slash, don't understand slash pairings and then WHAM are writing slash because it is hip and cool. Yeah, I'll pro'ly get flamed for that opinion, and I"m not questioning the motives of every writer out there, but hopefully I am making sense and don't sound entirely narrow-minded.

And it is one thing to not like slash. Everyone's milage varies. But the spewing vitriole on Isa's anti-slash manifesto really came across like the woman was screaming the entire time. She wasn't just disliking slash, she was casting judgment on an entire facet of fandom. I don't think I would have had a problem with her simply stating that she would only be archiving gen fic. Hey, it's her website, her perogative. But my respect for her went out the window when she added her hater-monger stance on it and her in your face anger with it.

Before BtvS I was actively involved in the Star Wars print zine genre. A friend and I put out a gen zine for several years. The fandom was old and steeped in traditions not really rooted in any rule or logic. that said, fic tended to be segregated into gen and slash zines. OUr last year, we decided to buck tradition, screw the seperate but equal unwritten rules, and incorporate some slash in our zine. Good lord did we catch shit. Some people returned the zine demanding money back (no big, I wasn't going to fuel their crusade.) One went as far demanding we remove the slash stories and then sell him back the zine at a lower rate to prorate the existing stories. told him to get lost. He either took the zine or didn't. We weren't going to force him. And we weren't going to remove/censor any of our contributors. He had two functioning hands, if the stories offended him so much, he could remove the stories himself. We were not going to do it for him. Needless to say, standing up for our writers, we caught major flak from the 'old guard.'

Unfortately, a lot of this narrowmindedness and anger is not new to fanfiction.

Getting back to the Jossverse...I like Spuffy, I'll admit it. Hell, I even write it. But I also like Spike/Angel a lot. And no, unlike Isa's assumptions I don't see that ship merely as two interlocking Lego pieces put together merely for sexual jollies. It's the character exploration that draws me to both pairings. That said, I don't like Bangel, and I'm not really a big Spike/Xander fan. Not passing judgment, I just prefer the first two ships.

I'm realistic. I know that every slasher isn't going to like the gen fic and every gen writer isn't going to discover a new love in slash. But I hate this seperate but equal treatment of slash. When you read between the lines it sometimes comes across as a very country club, elitist approach to fandom that really casts judgment and is tries to silence a growing a rich facet of fanfiction.


herself_nyc

2003-08-31 04:50 pm (UTC) (Link)

Just adding another voice to the chorus of 'I don't get it.' I thought fanfic was for fun. I thought it was about creativity, and about, y'know, writing things that we'll never see on the show, because we enjoy saying 'What if--?' and then following through on it.

I write a lot of S/B. I've written slash also. I adore both. I completely don't get the point of tantrums about slash being noncanonical, or writers having to stick to one pairing, or any of this flap. It reminds me of that saying from one of our better Supreme Court justices (I think): the answer to offensive speech isn't censorship, it's more speech. If Isabelle & Co don't like slash, they shouldn't read it. If they need more S/B fic, they should write it. If they feel that Anniesj has to be the one writing it, well, they need to realize that they are not the boss of Anniesj or anybody but their own selves.

One last thing--of course the subtext is there. But y'know, even if it wasn't--even if there was ZERO HOMOEROTIC SUBTEXT--where is the harm in writing slash? Where? WHERE? There isn't any, that's where.

vampsarecool

2003-08-31 08:06 pm (UTC) (Link)

Ok I got this from crimsonregrets
http://invis.free.anonymizer.com/http://www.geocities.com/lovelife6@ameritech.net/nogaydar.jpg I thought this fit isabella really well right now.

Hope

Eh? What?

robintcj

2003-08-31 09:31 pm (UTC) (Link)

I seee....I think Isa's insane. Sudden infestation of slash? Um...if anything, the amount of slash out there has DECREASED in recent months. I don't get half as many slash stories in my inbox as I used to. Sure, the big ones that are still going are still going, but there aren't that many NEW ones.

And at the risk of sounding like a horrid, horrid person, I don't read het. I don't read ANY het. Okay, not true. I read cbt377's Bangel, but that's it. There is no other het in my fiction regimen. And I don't want to read het. I ESPECIALLY don't want to read Spuffy. Why? Okay, you dragged it out of me, I'll tell you why. Because every time I've tried to read Spuffy, it's been some poorly written, horribly characterized, 12-year-old-author's drivel, and I'm sure there's well-written Spuffy out there but 60% of it is bad and therefore I'm not taking any chances. Yeah, there's bad slash too, but Those are ships I liked from the beginning, unlike Spuffy.

I get so mad at people who pigeon-hole slashers. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?!?! HONESTLY!!! A ship is a ship. Some shippers are more hardcore than others, and some shippers change. Hell, up till I found Domestic Pirhanas, I was a hardcore Bangel shipper, and nothing was gonna change my mind. I would only write Bangel (bad Bangel that is lost forever thank goodness), and that was that. Then one day I clicked on a link and voila! Hellloooooooooooooo Spander.

Isabelle's obviously closedminded. Honestly, if her favorite writers want to branch out, how can she hold it against them? THEY'RE the ones doing the writing. Sounds to me like if she spent more time getting dick of her own and less time ranting about how other people need dick, we'd all be a lot happier. And Isabelle can suck MY dick.

If I had one, that is.

*also has sour grapes*

violetfrosting

2003-09-01 03:01 am (UTC) (Link)

Hi - long time listener, first time caller...

I'm confused - maybe I read all the wrong journals or something - but since when did slash become a new trend in the fandom? I've been reading Spike/Angel (among others) since I first got here and that's three ot four years now.

Just because a few het writers have got bored and started experimenting, certain people seem to have taken it personally. As you say, it's probably because some of their favourite writers are writing a ship that they don't like these days. Kind of like when Tink defected to another fandom (N*Sync I believe). Doesn't mean that I hated her for it, or thought she had suddenly "gone trendy".

I've always considered slash fiction to a logical progression for some intelligent writers and a pleasantly pervy wank for the other sort.
It stands to reason that someone won't be content to write the same thing over and over again. Even Kita wrote het once *wink*

Rather than get on their high horse about the "terrible infestation of slash" in their fandom, why don't these people find new favourite het writers and leave the slashers alone to do what they do?

For the record, I am in fact getting plenty of dick. Does this mean I have to start reading Spuffy?

Yes.

robintcj

2003-09-01 07:50 am (UTC) (Link)

Just because you are getting plenty of dick whereas I'm not, you have to read Spuffy religiously. And only Spuffy. No more Spangel for you.

*snicker*

Aww! Don't cry! You can have Conner/Dawn, too!!

*cough*

Okay, that's just cruel. I take it all back. You don't have to read Spuffy.

wal_lace

2003-09-01 11:00 am (UTC) (Link)

So, hang on, does this mean that straight men are not allowed to read or write Spuffy? Because, y'know, I tend to avoid the cock. Except when I'm reading Clark/Lex, Wes/Gunn and Ethan/anybody.

Or has our esteemed correspondent simply failed to factor straight male slash readers into her equation?

Just linked in from Fandom_wank, and does that make me a bad person?

lucifrix

2003-09-02 01:57 am (UTC) (Link)

Or has our esteemed correspondent simply failed to factor straight male slash readers into her equation?

Heck, I didn't realize such men existed until about 15 seconds ago myself. I wouldn't have said you DON'T exist--the idea just never crossed my mind. I've never before met someone who enjoys stories that don't have any of the genital configuration--for lack of a better term, and totally avoiding for the sake of ease all the various vagaries of sexual orientation--that person enjoys in IRL sex or romance.

mpoetess

2003-09-02 10:47 am (UTC) (Link)

Yeah, it is rare, but I've met a few folks from the opposite corner. (though never before met a straight guy who likes m/m stories, even only in certain pairings -- that's a refreshing new one) Stone dykes who enjoy and even get off on writing/reading m/m slash, but don't in any way want to sleep with living men.

(no subject) - wal_lace, 2003-09-03 11:28 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - lucifrix, 2003-09-03 11:33 am (UTC) (Expand)

mpoetess

2003-09-02 10:53 am (UTC) (Link)

Or has our esteemed correspondent simply failed to factor straight male slash readers into her equation?

I think our esteemed correspondent has failed to factor a lot of things into her equation -- though like lucifrix said, I can see where it might be more natural to not think of straight male slash fans -- you're not a very plentiful crop (or of y'all are, you're not very vocal about it in these parts). I can't say I never imagined there might be straight guys who still like slash stories (even only certain slash stories) but in most cases I think I'd put it down to wishful thinking before now. :)

And I will forgive you for the evil of arriving from Fandom Wank if you pretend you don't notice my name on the membership list. ;-)

On the original topic: I think you're allowed to write Spuffy, but only if you *always* loved Spuffy best. Otherwise you're a traitor to... something. Whatever pairing you started out enjoying the most. without you, the Giles/Jenny love will fade from history and DIE.

highlander_ii

2003-09-01 05:53 pm (UTC) (Link)

*scratches head and looks around, confused* "infestation of slash"? and 'sudden' at that? hmmm -

I'm not a slasher, not a shipper, I read what I like and I read what is good. What does that make me?

What I hate are these name-blends - 'Spuffy' being my least fave, but 'Spangel' and the like - what's wrong w/ just using their names? (okay - end mini-rant) -

But, here's why I generally read slash instead of 'ship' -- b/c the slash writers (USUALLY) write in the 'backstory' for why the pairing should be, whereas a lot of 'ship' writers leave that out - they get lazy b/c their 'ship' is canon and don't explain anything -- (no, not all, but a whole lot) -- I like to know 'why' these two characters are engaging in some form of relationship - b/c there HAS to be a reason, right? There should be.

So, got your back on this one --


lucifrix

2003-09-02 01:59 am (UTC) (Link)

And that's extra-special interesting because Spike/Buffy is one "canon" ship that NEEDS explaining, if you're going to get all anal about explanations.

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