Francine - harvest
I Blame the Dutch mpoetess
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Discussion past its sell-by date, I know, but since the question was asked...
Since there has been a complaint that the silence on the side of slash-defenders regarding the following issue has been deafening, I feel I must address it.

ginmar said: I'm still waiting for some slasher to point out that not liking slash doesn't make you homophobic or repressed.

Dear World:

Not liking slash does not make you homophobic or repressed. 1

For additional deafening silence, please see:

ObDisclaimer: This is intended for those who identified as "anti-slash". This is not meant for those who simply do not like slash, or those who prefer het/gen as a general rule. Y'all are fine and don't need to worry. We like you, promise. ~thebratqueen

(Which also contains the gem "Yeah, sure, sometimes you get accused of homophobia. And I agree that sometimes that's not correct. It's not necessarily homophobic to say that you don't like slash. However if the way you choose to phrase that dislike uses terms that were last seen acting as adjectives inside of SARS-related news stories maybe you need to rethink your terminology.")

ETA - and in the comments: It's also something of an offshoot of the knee-jerk "You don't like slash, therefore you're a homophobe!" reaction that some slash fans give. In my ideal world both sides would back down and we'd all proceed without having to flash some credentials."

Also:

Please note, not enjoying, not being interested in, or just not caring about slash does not make anyone homophobic. ~kita0610


For a thoughtful and calm examination of why the suspicion of homophobia tends to arise in some cases, feel free to enjoy eliade's post on the subject which begins "There's a reason that people who persistently challenge slash are often called homophobic; it's because slash is for many people a form of sexual orientation, and it can often feel as if you're at a party with your fabulous gay lover and some strange woman comes up to you and says, 'I'm not homophobic, but I'm really curious why you feel the need to express your sexuality with another woman and do odd things to her with strap-ons. What's that about? It's not the normal sort of thing to do.' Most of the time, that question is just disingenuous and annoying."


1Seriously. Non-sarcastically, despite surrounding facetiousness.

minitrog

2003-09-02 02:41 am (UTC) (Link)

Not liking slash does not make you homophobic or repressed.

Surely they know if their homophobic or not? Are we required to analyse their every turn of phrase to validate their liberalism, dispite their hetro turn of ficlust.

I'm daily reduced to iconing. My teeth are shattered from gritting and my hair returning to gray. In the immortal words of Oscar Wilde "I'm too old for this shit!"


mpoetess

2003-09-02 11:30 am (UTC) (Link)

The person who made the statement feels that "homophobia" has become the accepted response to throw at anyone who says they don't prefer or like slash, and that the slash defenders a) started the namecalling, and b) haven't addressed the issue.

a) bullshit -- If one states that slash is "an infestation," liken it to "fucking lice" and says that it's "horrible" and "sickening" and then states that anyone calling one homophobic is Just Plain Wrong because one loves one's gay cousin? One started the namecalling in that case, as well as invited people to wonder about one's possible homophobia, just because of one's vitriolic word choices. [one = Isabelle, not the person who says that the slashers started it]

b) Ok, here's me addressing the issue.

My best friend and roommate isn't into slash. She reads mine, and that's about it. She's uncomfortable with slash in her own fandoms (anime) unless it's canon or the subtext is very very heavy, to the point where it seems intentional -- and just in general, het entertains her more than slash. Period.

Do I think she's homophobic because of that? No. It doesn't get her off.

If she posted a screed saying that slash was wrong because it was disgusting, I'd think she was acting in a homophobic way.

If she posted a screed saying that there's nothing wrong with slash, but why why why do so many people who were fans of her pairing want to write slash now; it's not fair, and the stuff is all sex and people are just sticking random dicks into random holes, I'd suspect she was acting like a 12 year old, whining about not getting her own way -- but not particularly homophobic.

If someone said "So do random and badly written het pairings bother you too then?" and she said well, no... or said "Not as much as slash ones because gay men are *special*" or said nothing at all and dodged the question, I'd think she had some pretty funny ideas about sexuality and who owns it, and I *might* wonder if she had issues with gay stories and was covering it by complaining that they're not fair to gay *people*.

If she combined all of those things into one long, venomous rant complete with beautiful (and ironically slashy) illustrations of why the characters Just Aren't Gay...

Not liking slash doesn't make you homophobic.

Feeling the need to explain loudly why you don't like slash and how it's unfair that you can't be "cool" unless you write slash (I'm still looking for that announcement -- dammit I used to get the cool people newsletter) leaves you open to people wondering why you care so deeply about something that you're supposedly not interested in.

Using words that have homophobic connotations for a large portion of society (disgusting, lice, and yes, 'trendy,' though granted that's a new one and mostly used by the religious right when making accusations about Gay Chic and the Gay Agenda) while you explain loudly why you don't like slash, leaves you open to people wondering if you're homophobic. Whether or not you identify as bi -- because god knows there's never been homo/bi/trans/bdsm/insertdifferentorientationorkinkhere/phobia within the queer community...

--

That said -- I think there's some truth to the charge that some slashers on the defensive shout "homophobia" at the drop of an "It's not my kink" -- but I haven't seen it in any sort of widespread way, or seen it very often without some backup of *why* the slasher felt the other person's words were homophobic.

OTOH, I think there's also a tendency for people to prematurely say "And don't call me homophobic -- I love my gay cousin" or "You're all going to call me repressed but screw you" before anyone has accused them of anything -- and that kind of language ,i>leads</i> to readers inspecting the speaker's words for the very things they're denying are contained there.

You know what you guys need to do to really make a point?

kuzibah

2003-09-02 05:51 am (UTC) (Link)

Write lots and lots of well-written (whatever that means), hot, beautiful slash and send it to me.

That'll teach 'em. :)

Seriously, though, it's not worth going grey over. This argument should have begun and ended with "I don't care for it, so I don't read it." I can't believe someone has put the time and effort (though, judging by the spelling and grammer, not a whole lot of effort) into a whole anti-slash screed like it's going to change anyone's mind.

Re: You know what you guys need to do to really make a point?

mpoetess

2003-09-02 10:41 am (UTC) (Link)

Heh! Granted -- my own slash output recently, well-written or otherwise, has been pretty much nada. I'm sure that's a good part of why I've been taking so much of the ker-wotziting to heart -- feeling defensive of this thing that gets me so tied in knots sometimes that I can't write at all, yet love so much, and also feeling like discussion (or sometimes bitching) is the only thing I have to offer at the moment.

Hey, I know how it is

kuzibah

2003-09-02 12:18 pm (UTC) (Link)

I've hit dry spells myself, and it's very frustrating. Just don't let other people's ignorance getting to you be the cause, because that would be tragic.

Just watching this whole thing play out seems surreal to me. I mean, the fanfic community has been invisible for so long, and even now so much of fandom looks on us as a weird subset (which, taste the irony, folks), that for any part of it to have this in-fighting just seems counter-productive.

Good luck, sweetie. Hope the muse starts whispering perverted nothings in your ear real soon.

Re: Hey, I know how it is

mpoetess

2003-09-02 12:28 pm (UTC) (Link)

*hugs Kuz*

In all fairness, it's just me and my uncooperative brain. Anti-slash folks aren't fueling my lack-o-muse; if anything the weekly flamewars at least give me the comfort that I can write something even if it's just defensive essays. ;-)

*hugs MP back*

kuzibah

2003-09-02 05:07 pm (UTC) (Link)

As I said, here's hoping.

In the meantime, keep up the amusing LJ work.

thebratqueen

2003-09-02 09:08 am (UTC) (Link)

Ginmar's still waiting for a lot of things, and that's all I'm going to say about that. Now pardon me while I go hide in the bomb shelter.

hj1

2003-09-02 11:11 am (UTC) (Link)

Just a stranger busting in with a question regarding this:

ginmar said: I'm still waiting for some slasher to point out that not liking slash doesn't make you homophobic or repressed.

Why should the slashers point that out? Since when are they obligated to pet non-slash readers and tell them it's okay if they don't enjoy the hothotmanlove? Seriously, I don't expect a romance fit writer to point out that not liking romance fic doesn't make me afraid of/disgusted by the concept of romantic love.

mpoetess

2003-09-02 11:49 am (UTC) (Link)

I think what's meant is specifically slash-fans who are arguing with 'anti-slashers' or people who state that they don't like slash. So I'd say it's not as invalid a question as it would be if she'd said "all slashers" which she didn't.

I still think it's not the responsibility of people who *aren't* screaming "homophobic" to write essays about why the people who are, should stop, though. Especially since I've yet to see any statistically large group of slashers who are doing that, nor have I seen widespread complaints that it's happening. So what perceived injustice on the part of our fellow slash fans are we supposed to be reacting to?

tazical

2003-09-03 02:26 pm (UTC) (Link)

I think the silence is about us slashers just being bored out of our skulls from having to defend our hobby every couple of weeks. *sigh* I just addressed the issue in my own journal and as far as I can see it's the minority opinion causing a problem. Most people that don't like slash don't read slash, end of problem. People that do like slash read slash and that's that. Some people like me even -shock!- read slash, het and non-ship fics and yet I fail to understand why I'm not bursting into flame every time I log online because clearly that seems to be beyond the realms of comprehension for some people. After all, we all live in little glass pigeonholes and should never be allowed to mix with anyone that doesn't hold exactly the same opinion for this would cause mass destruction and worldwide chaos the likes of which has never been dreamed of. Traffic lights would stop working, fridges would break down, ants would grow as big as poodles and eat small birds and firemen.

It's just not right.

/sarcasm.

Am tired and not making sense. Bed? Bed.

mpoetess

2003-09-03 03:19 pm (UTC) (Link)

Mini-rant only tangentially related to your hilarious comment, deleted. I *must* stop caring about this. Truly.

Bed would be nice, though you made perfect sense.


tazical

2003-09-03 03:29 pm (UTC) (Link)

Ah, but if everyone stopped caring where would be the passion in fandom? Home is where the bitchin's at. *g*

Bed would be nice, though you made perfect sense.
Really? Wow, first time for everything I guess. Making sense that is, not the bed. Making a bed? Eh. Okay now I really must sleep.

Or, I could write fic. Hmm. Necessary functional priority vs random sleep-deprived brain-farts. Is there a contest here? I do believe not. Farting it is.