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I don't have a problem with the non-mention of Oz. Aside from the fannish glee it would have produced, I don't think it was dramatically necessary, and it's reasonable to assume that no one -- including Spike -- knew how much success Oz had achieved with controlling his werewolfism.

Angel's "you can learn to control yourself, here's an example -- me" was more immediate and positive than "I knew a werewolf who. Um. Was ok aside from the three nights a month they used to lock him in the library book cage and the few times he escaped, and I think he eventually broke up with his girlfriend and left town over it..."

Though there's no reason to believe that Angel even knows anything at all about Oz post-In the Dark, aside from possibly his breakup with Willow. We see how well they've been keeping in touch in Disharmony when Cordy doesn't know Willow's Gay Now. Ditto Wes, who seems not to know even in Orpheus. And while Willow and Fred were apparently trading recipes, it seems unlikely they'd have chatted about Willow's old werewolf boyfriend when Willow's all about the Gay Now, and can't be allowed to mention Oz even on her own show.

Spike, having been among the Scoobies and seen the W/T romance blossom, plus being part of Operation Rescue Oz, probably knows something about Oz' success with controlling himself -- but at the same time, he knows about Oz' failure to control himself when it came to the woman he loved, so it's not like there's encouraging stories to tell there. Granted Spike was more into telling the non-encouraging sort in this ep, but his general dire predictions were enough to get his point across, without babbling about Red's ex and how his Tibetan mysticism didn't do him a fuck of a lot of good when he smelled the Gay Now on her. Even if Spike were being particularly benevolent, there wasn't a lot that would seem positive to share about the Oz thing, given Nina's worries about whether she could be around the people she loved.


2003-10-16 06:51 am (UTC) (Link)


Is that allowed?


2003-10-16 07:01 am (UTC) (Link)

Yes, but only if you post with an icon that includes Spike in it.


2003-10-16 07:35 am (UTC) (Link)

I always thought part of the reason they stressed that whole "rare breed of werewolf, that walks on two legs and is more vicious, blah, blah, exposition-cakes" was a way to not talk about Oz. Because yes, other than fannish glee - not that there's anything wrong with that - Angel makes a much better example than someone who is peripheral to their lives, may not have current information on, and is probably somewhere in Tibet because he couldn't deal with it and tried to attack his girlfriend. And also, he's a different breed entirely.




2003-10-16 08:10 am (UTC) (Link)

I can see that as a way not to talk about Oz, yeah -- like his methods might not even work for her. Though it also works as a way to play up the fact that she's a delicacy to the werewolf chowhounds.


2003-10-16 10:08 am (UTC) (Link)

Hmm. I forgot about the "rare species" line, probably cause I was all distracted with going: "Is that Phlox? It is! It's Dr. Phlox!" But that makes me happy, now that I remember it, because it means that this time they had an actual *reason* for changing the makeup.

I like your logic. I walk around to admire it from all angles and pet it. But... the Initiative, albeit without actually being named, got two references. Couldn't they have said "Tibet?"


2003-10-16 07:39 am (UTC) (Link)




2003-10-16 08:12 am (UTC) (Link)



2003-10-16 08:00 am (UTC) (Link)

Oh fine - go be all rational and thoughtful about it, why dontcha?



2003-10-16 08:11 am (UTC) (Link)

But hey, Oz got a completely superfluous mention in Potential, where it was revealed that Xander has been keeping him in his shaving kit all this time!


2003-10-16 08:25 am (UTC) (Link)

*blinks, blinks* huh?

*mutters* and YES, I kept hoping they'd mention Oz. Or that Oz would show up at the end to teach her the stuff the Tibetan monks had taught him. *sighs*


2003-10-16 08:42 am (UTC) (Link)

Xander mentioned Oz in the Buffy S7 ep "Potential" when he was listing out all the people around him who had power when he didn't, to show Dawn that he understands -- the actual quote is "Hell, I could fit Oz in my shaving kit, but come a full moon, he had a wolfy mojo not to be messed with."

I wanted an Oz mention too, but... fun for the fans, not necessary for the story. Oz actually showing up... would be more appropriate for a fanfic than a real episode, I think. I wouldn't criticise it if it happened, but I know a few folks who'd roll their eyes.


2003-10-16 08:53 am (UTC) (Link)

"Hell, I could fit Oz in my shaving kit, but come a full moon, he had a wolfy mojo not to be messed with."

Right! I remember now :)

I wanted an Oz mention too, but... fun for the fans, not necessary for the story.

*mutters* Maybe, but I still wanted it ;)


2003-10-16 09:51 am (UTC) (Link)

Red's ex and how his Tibetan mysticism didn't do him a fuck of a lot of good when he smelled the Gay Now on her


And re mentioning Oz, they mentioned the freaking Initiative, without following up on it, even though that would have been a good lead in the "case" at that point. So I wouldn't have put the mention in the dialogue to the blonde girl, but I would have put it in when the team is discussing how to find her or where she might have gone. To me it wasn't so much a wanting of the fannish glee, but rather with all those people who knew Oz in the room, it felt awkward not to say something.


2003-10-16 10:25 am (UTC) (Link)

Why would it have been a good lead? So far as we know, the Initiative only 'made' three monsters, and those were hybrid creations, not just normal monster breeding.


2003-10-16 10:36 am (UTC) (Link)

Ahh, but at that point we didn't know that they made her for that express purpose. (And frankly, I'm still not convinced they did. When Angel et al were talking about the werewolf-killed-by-pen, they didn't say he left a trail of werewolves behind him, they said he left a trail of bodies. Bodies wouldn't be able to be used for the "feast", only live werewolves. So it still feels more like they just took advantage of the situation. Also in support of that is the fact that the diners were all gathered "on short notice". They didn't expect her.) At that point in the story line, all they knew was that there was a newly made werewolf that got kidnapped by a bunch of military types. The initiative would have been a good lead.


2003-10-16 02:46 pm (UTC) (Link)

Except that what the new Initiative, from what we could tell when Spike last saw them, is in the monster-destruction business, no longer with the capture or tag-and-release programs. Grabbing a monster fits the Initiative's pre-Adam mantra, but it doesn't fit their new mantra. I don't think it would have made a fabulous lead. Also, one wonders, lead to where? Calling Buffy to get a number for Riley (if she still has one) then calling Riley to see if he could give them information on what may well have been a sanctioned operation seems less than useful, considering that they knew it was partly an inside job and they could start interrogating their own employees right away.


2003-10-16 07:33 pm (UTC) (Link)

Oh, I'm not saying it would be a useful lead :), but in their place I would have been curious at least, not just, "That's been known to happen...moving on."


2003-10-16 12:26 pm (UTC) (Link)

I took the not talking about Oz as another: ____ (actor) left ME and ME will never mention them again and kill or other wise painfully take ____ (character) off the show.


2003-10-16 03:44 pm (UTC) (Link)

Oh yeah - meta-wise, I think Joss still has serious hot-cold issues with mentioning Oz because he has serious hot-cold issues with Seth Green. I suspect he still feels dumped on and whether Oz gets mentioned or not in any given context might depend on what mood Joss is in and how much he thinks he needs the fan support he'd get from the shout-out.


2003-10-16 11:43 pm (UTC) (Link)

::hums to self:: I ignore your logic! Mean logic!

Hrmph. ;P

Tehee. Spike.


2003-10-17 07:17 am (UTC) (Link)