Francine - harvest
I Blame the Dutch mpoetess
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Stuff Not To Say To Me
Offhand, and this ain't a rant, because I'm not presently incensed; it's just one of several things that have been bouncing round in my head. And really, this stuff hasn't been said *recently* -- I'm just seeing the atmosphere heat up again to a place where I can forsee the phrases popping up.

--

"Respect the office of the President even [if] you can't respect the man."

I do respect the intended values and powers of the office of the President. Holders of that office who betray the trust and honor that my people have placed in it, deserve even less respect than if they were a man on the street with the same bigoted views and slimey politics. If I say "The President is an asswipe," I'm talking about President Bush, not the office of the President of the United States. Trust me, I'm doing him an honor by referring to him as President, and he's doing the office the dishonor by being an asswipe.

"Talking bad about [political party or religious pressure group] as a group is hate speech; how would you like it if I replaced "Christian Coalition" with "gays" in whatever angry thing you just said?"

I wouldn't, because it's not the same. No, it's not. One's bigotry, and one is angry speech directed at a group's stated or apparent goals and ideals, and/or the behavior of individual members who openly represent their groups. The Christian Coalition is a political group; gays are individuals who for the most part only openly represent themselves. You weren't born a member of the CC and you didn't suddenly become one because you fell in love with Pat Robertson and couldn't hide who you truly are inside.

You can choose not to be part of a group that has offensive policies and ideals. You can clarify that you share some ideals with them but not all, and still consider yourself part of that group, so I should please be more specific in my language. If I get pissy when ranting about such groups, it's possible I'm overgeneralising, so feel free to correct me on their values and yours.

But at the end of the day, one thing is about individual traits (being black, gay, female, Allah-worshipping) and the other is about things a self-identified group, usually political, puts out there for the world to comment on. Please don't try to convince me that it's the equivalent of bigotry against people, vs. disgust at ideas, because it's not.

(Deleted comment)

Re: I know how to cool off the atmosphere.

mpoetess

2003-12-19 05:58 am (UTC) (Link)

Yup. *g* As long as they don't try to tell me that I'm hatin' on them for calling that opinion asinine!

wrenlet

2003-12-17 05:50 pm (UTC) (Link)

You weren't born a member of the CC and you didn't suddenly become one because you fell in love with Pat Robertson and couldn't hide who you truly are inside.

"Word" is, like, totally over as a term of agreement, isn't it? Oh, who the hell cares. WORD. Republican politicians and pundits are using some particularly smarmy and dangerous tactics in their ongoing push to stifle dissent in this country, and appropriating terms such as hate speech looks to be the most recent.

They honestly, honestly scare me these days.

mpoetess

2003-12-19 06:03 am (UTC) (Link)

I haven't been seeing it so much from the actual party leaders and pundits, though it wouldn't be at all surprising, but from people on LJ and in fandom generally. Case in point, I just got told I'd lost the moral high ground (don't recall ever having claimed it but whatever) over (see next journal entry) our wee slash-hating friends at "Gross - the Slash Hatelisting" because I was amused by the existence of a GWB hatelisting. Because hate's only bad as long as I don't agree with it.

Uhm, yeah. Couldn't be that hatred (which I don't actually feel for Bush, just disgust) of an individual, based on his actions, is, oh completely different from hatred of a faceless group based on their personal choice or lack thereof of who to sleep with.


wrenlet

2003-12-19 09:27 am (UTC) (Link)

Anti-Bush art called hate speech (I originally read about this in an online newspaper, not this obviously Democratic source, but can't manage to Google that link now.)

Also, just recently, Senate Republicans were accusing Democrats of racism for fighting Bush's judicial appointments. It goes way beyond fandom and it scares the crap out of me.

(And yeah, not long ago I was compared to a homophobe for voicing my dislike of crappy fiction. I maintain that writing that badly has to be a choice :P)

giogio

2003-12-17 05:58 pm (UTC) (Link)

Wordy McWord.

viciouswishes

2003-12-17 06:03 pm (UTC) (Link)

One's bigotry, and one is angry speech directed at a group's stated or apparent goals and ideals, and/or the behavior of individual members who openly represent their groups.
As we learn in radio, this is the difference between libelous slander and discussing a public figure.

tygerseye

2003-12-17 07:00 pm (UTC) (Link)

Word.

chicken_cem

2003-12-17 07:23 pm (UTC) (Link)

"Respect the office of the President even if you can't respect the man."

I have also run into the people who say this.

In 1986 and 1987, I would sometimes show up at soccer practice wearing my anti-Reagan t-shirt. Well-known liberal student and band geek Chris Tracy had done the silk-screen himself, a picture of Reagan's face with a red circle and red slash on top of the face. A large number of nerdy liberal kids wore them.

This one 'cool' jock girl on the varsity team would come up to me and say: "How can you disrespect the father of our country?"

Ahem. There are no words.

mpoetess

2003-12-19 06:08 am (UTC) (Link)


Ahem. There are no words.


Sure there are! "Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahaa!"

dancetomato

2003-12-17 10:21 pm (UTC) (Link)

I was talking to a friend Wednesday who is an 80-something Democrat. He was incensed because he got a fund-raising letter from the Republican National Committee today. With a *membership card* enclosed. He cut it up and returned it in the postage paid envelope. He was my hero for yesterday. You are my heroine for today.

mpoetess

2003-12-19 06:09 am (UTC) (Link)

I'm deeply honoured. :D


lucifrix

2003-12-18 08:33 am (UTC) (Link)

I'm with you, and might steal the part about President Asswipe if you'll let me, except for this one bit with which I must quibble:

But at the end of the day, one thing is about individual traits (being black, gay, female, Allah-worshipping) and the other is about things a self-identified group, usually political, puts out there for the world to comment on. Please don't try to convince me that it's the equivalent of bigotry against people, vs. disgust at ideas, because it's not.

Being "Allah-worshipping" (or any other religion) is a choice, so having a distaste for all people of a certain religion, if that religion supports ideas you find distasteful, doesn't seem any different from the sort of distaste you and I have for the Christian Coalition. I hate the CC no less than I hate the Roman Catholic church, for most of the same reasons, and I sometimes have a really hard time dealing with people who by their membership keep supporting those institutions.

mpoetess

2003-12-18 09:16 am (UTC) (Link)

Yeah, but being Allah-worshipping doesn't have to mean belonging to any organized religion, which is why after some thought I included that. Your spirituality or lack thereof may or may not be a choice; choosing to join an organized group of other people with the same pfrofessed spirituality, is a choice. I.e. -- TBQ considers herself Catholic in spirit; she doesn't support the Roman Catholic church. So that's the kind of thing I meant by "Allah-worshipping."

lucifrix

2003-12-18 09:27 am (UTC) (Link)

Ok, I get what you mean about the difference between having a particular spiritual viewpoint and pursuing that viewpoint through a group. Re the Catholic thing, I just am not very good at seeing the gray areas. When an organization is evil I have a hard time reconciling ANY association with them if I think about it too much...I have a tough time understanding why one would still identify as Catholic, rather than "Catholic influenced" perhaps, if one had major differences with their points of view.