Francine - harvest
I Blame the Dutch mpoetess
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Wolfling: this is how I know I am a A/W otp person
Wolfling: I go on and on about wes/angel in this ep and almost forget to mention the thing about the thing
Wolfling: and one of the big s/a fanatics on my list doesn't even mention Wes in her ep post.

poetess: and I, the S/X shipper who is fairly painfully invested in S/A as past canon, is about to make a post saying "Yes, that was a meta shoutout, but I think he was literally talking about emotional intimacy."

--

Aka, Yes, Amy is still shallow. Plz see TBQ, Wolfling, and others for intelligent commentary on our ded gay show.

It may just be the way-too-expensive-because-Jen's-ex-boss-gave-it-to-us wine, but I don't think it's an actual confirmation of A/S canon sex hijinks. I think, while they were giving us an obvious slash wink, on the literal level Spike was doing the oppposite of their earlier conversation about intercourse (having learned from that encounter, which I realize is the biggest stretch in this particular mental yoga session) and assuming Illyria was talking about touchy-feely type intimacy.

The look on his face with 'except for that once...' was more the "It's hard for me to admit I was touched by this, but..." look (aka the William-the-Bloody-Awful-Poet-rises-like-an-uncomfortable-gas-bubble look), than anything to do with sex. Spike only sees having sex as intimacy when it serves his romantic notions -- Buffy, Drusilla. He and Harm got it on all the time but he doesn't think of himself as having a relationship with her, for instance. Angel(us) actually taking him seriously and trusting him with something emotional (a grain-beverage-induced encounter, one would assume), OTOH, would produce that look, just as much as Buffy doing the same.

Which is a fanwanky dance on the head of a pin, but it makes me a vast bit happier than the "We give you the guys acting slashy but then hand them lines that make the Fanged Four history canonically more vanilla..." of The Girl in Question.

If I take "Except for that one..." as a reference to physical intimacy, then yeah, yay, it's canon. Except I get at best a 'confirmation' that, again, the vamps were a hell of a lot more middle class missionary position than makes any sense for what they were and are, if they only got it on once in twenty years... (And at worst I get something that the valiantly anti-slash can still claim we're on crack for taking literally...)

On the other hand, if I squee at the meta-shoutout but accept that he wasn't actually talking about sex, then it leaves the unwritten -- but not contradicted -- canon open for two decades of mad S/A shagging. And one moment of happy fic-able potential when something happened that Spike would actually remember as Angel(us) being intimate with him.

I bed now.

raveninthewind

2004-05-13 12:35 am (UTC) (Link)

Um. I'll vote for your interpretation. Never mind what Those Who Refuse to See the Slash think.

mpoetess

2004-05-13 09:49 am (UTC) (Link)

I like Kita's version too; that Spike does mean sex but he means that he and *Angel* only had sex once. Post-soul.

kita0610

2004-05-13 01:01 am (UTC) (Link)

I took it as ANGEL and Spike have only been intimate once. (Or once that Spike will admit.) Spike sees Angelus as another entity, as evidenced by his "if he was meglomaniac (Angelus), I would know."

mpoetess

2004-05-13 01:31 am (UTC) (Link)

Oh, now see, I honestly hadn't thought of that angle. Hmm. Yeah. That works for me too!

violetfrosting

2004-05-13 03:05 am (UTC) (Link)

Ooooooooooh - nice idea

*has post-Boxer-Rebellion-say-goodbye-shag plot bunnies*

shapinglight

2004-05-13 03:53 am (UTC) (Link)

Saw it that way too. Angel and Spike may have only 'done it' once, but Angelus and William were obviously shagging like bunnies.

hermionesviolin

2004-05-13 05:27 am (UTC) (Link)

*nods* I was thinking a similar thing, given how committed ME is to the Angel/Angelus distinction, but i didn't go the extra step to connect that with how Spike clearly also makes that distinction.

Also, mpoetess, I LOVE YOU! I was over in a corner going "No, you can't ruin the loads of so much subtext it's text for that one throwaway joke," wondering if i have spent too much time in fandom where S/A shagging is so fanon it feels like canon, while everyone else was "See, they made the slash canon." Since you were the one who really jumped all over the "Never concurrently? Like hell!" i should have known you'd be with me on this one.

This is beautiful fanwank. I hadn't thought to make the connection to the "intercourse" distinction brought up previously, and i can buy The look on his face with 'except for that once...' was more the "It's hard for me to admit I was touched by this, but..." and just Word to that whole last paragraph (well, penultimate paragraph, since "I bed now." is technically a paragraph /dork).

mpoetess

2004-05-13 09:51 am (UTC) (Link)

I was over in a corner going "No, you can't ruin the loads of so much subtext it's text for that one throwaway joke,"

nodnodnod. It was a nice joke, but I'd much rather have unconfirmed wide-open fields, than have things unneccesarily limited for the sake of a gag line.

xanphibian

2004-05-13 06:57 am (UTC) (Link)

*nod* That's what I'm going with, too.

zortified

2004-05-13 06:00 am (UTC) (Link)

Spike and Angel may have had the sex, but Angel and Wesley have the love.

And Hamilton is beautimous. squishes Hamilton

mpoetess

2004-05-13 09:42 am (UTC) (Link)

Well, duh, because Spike is saving himself for Dru Buffy Xander.

joopetir

2004-05-13 06:44 am (UTC) (Link)

I have to ask... I know almost nothing about the terms "slash" and "shipper", except that it involves preferring (or writing fanfic about) certain relationships over others, whether they were shown or implied or not even real. I can guess when someone says S/A they mean Spike and Angel, or when someone says Fuffy, they mean Faith and Buffy... but what does otp mean? And what does TBQ mean? And when you say canon, do you mean that relationship has been identified and accepted as truth, whether it was written into the shows or not?

Sorry for the questions; while I'm not new to LJ, I've never read or participated in any fanfic.

mpoetess

2004-05-13 09:38 am (UTC) (Link)

slash, in reference to the show = gay relationships or hints at gay relationships or things that people interpret as hints at gay relationships. More often you'll see a confirmed gay relationshp (Willow/Tara after the episode New Moon Rising for instance) just referred to as a gay relationship -- 'slash' tends to be used for the hints-and-subtext discussion.

slash, in reference to fanfic = gay relationships that are usually openly stated in the story/ the main point of the story. Sometimes those are confirmed-onscreen couples, but more often (except in a fandom like Queer As Folk where most of the characters are confirmed as gay) they're hinted-at/interpreted-as/seen-as-having-chemistry/thought-would-interact-well-even-if-they-never-met-onscreen couples. There's some disagreement in fandom as to whether stories about confirmed-gay couples should be labeled 'slash' but as far as I know, the majority of writers/readers still say yes -- slash = fanfiction featuring couples in gay relationships, period.

(het = straight relationships, whether they appeared on the show or not. "gen" is a little tricky. Some people use it to mean "A story with no major romantic elements, that's more about adventure or specific characters, or non-romantic relationships" and some use it to mean "A story that may have romantic elements but only with couples that match up with what was shown onscreen at the time the story is set.")

conventional relationship (at least in Buffy fandom) = relationship confirmed onscreen, whether slash or het.

unconventional relationship = relationship not confirmed onscreen, whether slash or het.

Obviously there's some slipperyness with what people consider 'confirmed,' hence the fwibbling-mibbling in my original post.

shipper = someone who likes a particular relationship, whether it's one that exists onscreen or not. It's a slippery term; sometimes it means "This is one of several relationships I like to read/write about or enjoy onscreen" and sometimes it means "This is the only relationship I care about in the show/fanfic/world" (Shipper has a specific meaning in X-Files fandom, of "Mulder/Scully fan" - but cross-fandoms it's usually used for any type of romantic pairing.)

OTP = One True Pairing = "I am not only a shipper for this pairing, but I think these characters belong together and any other relationship they're in is not as good/pleasing/appropriate as this one. They R Ment 2 be!" *cough* Perhaps I exaggerate. ;-) Some people have more than one OTP (Like Willow/Tara and Xander/Spike; they don't conflict with each other). Some people have an onscreen OTP and a fanfic OTP, which might conflict with each other. (Onscreen it might be Buffy/Spike because there's no way the slash pairing is going to happen, but in fanfic it's Spike/Angel all the way...) Some people have OT3's (One True Threesome) or other variations. Or a het OTP and slash OTP for the same character.

canon = actually happened onscreen, or was stated by a character on the show who didn't appear to be lying. Obviously, see above post, some canon is open to interpretation. Some people think Spike saying "We were never intimate. Except for that one..." is confirmation that Spike and Angel were physically intimate in their history, and some have other interpretations.

fanon = things that didn't happen onscreen, but have popped up in fanfic so often that some readers/writers aren't sure of that. Sometimes it's fanfic ideas that work so well to explain some plot loophole that people think they *should* be canon, so many writers adopt it into the backstory of their fanfic.

"Fuffy" makes my head hurt. *grin* I'm a big curmudgeon who hates the thing where the people's names get smooshed together to make the pairing name. At least when the name sounds silly and/or really doesn't reflect the relationship -- Fuffy sounds like Buffy and Faith are setting up housekeeping in a cosy little apartment and wearing fuzzy bunny slippers. I'm still a fan of just typing out the names Faith/Buffy or using initials like F/B. Lots of people do the smooshy thing, though.

joopetir

2004-05-13 10:43 am (UTC) (Link)

WOW, I had no idea that fanfic was so salaciously scandalous. Thank you very much for the explanations! I think it's too convoluted for me to even get involved, but at least I will understand when I com across 'OTP' in posts from now on! : )

wackinessensues

2004-05-13 08:51 am (UTC) (Link)

LOL, here's my wank:

He could have meant that one: season, summer, year, or time.

He was referring to Angel, which means him and Angelus could have fucked liked bunnies for two decades while Angel has only given it up once.

These wanks brought to you by the 134 people on my friends list who thought to themselves "Tania just died and went to heaven" when that line was spoken.

Hee. Now don't be a buzzkill, just take my hand and dance around with me, the Spike/Xander faction shouldn't be the only ones able to dance the dance of our ship is canon vindication.

Wheeeeeeee!

mpoetess

2004-05-13 09:47 am (UTC) (Link)

Snerk. The Spike/Xander faction doesn't get "It's canon, bitch!" -- we just get "They looked at each other when she asked if anyone here hadn't slept together, which means... uh... something!"

*dances with you anyway*

wackinessensues

2004-05-13 03:36 pm (UTC) (Link)

Ahh, I'll give y'all that look as canon, lol.

In my book that counts.

thebratqueen

2004-05-13 01:11 pm (UTC) (Link)

I also liked someone's interpretation that the end of Spike's sentence was something like "Except for once, when we were shagging for the entire decade of the 1890s."

sueworld2003

2004-05-13 05:27 pm (UTC) (Link)

Oh god I've loved reading all this...........

mpoetess

2004-05-14 06:31 am (UTC) (Link)

The joy of metawank.... *g*

vanilla_tiger

2004-05-14 01:07 pm (UTC) (Link)

(Got here through mutant_allies

My immediate fanwank was based on something I've seen time and time again in fic. If Spike had continued it would have gone like this, "Except for the one time, oh and that other time. And that month we spent in this little farmhouse just outside Paris. And -no, wait we were drunk then so that one doesn't count. I suppose you'd have to include..." And so on.

Although your version is good too.

mpoetess

2004-05-14 01:15 pm (UTC) (Link)

Snerk. Well, yeah, but that's all clever and funny and stuff. I prefer to be overanalytical and dull!

*g*

mad_nnw

2004-05-14 03:55 pm (UTC) (Link)

Except for the one time, oh and that other time.

Yeah, that was my first reaction as well. "And, you know, whenever Dru was too busy playing with her dolls or Darla had really pissed off Angelus... well, okay, we were intimate a lot actually. But it's not like I'm a poof or anything - he was my sire. Sorta."

But then I also noticed that he doesn't say anything about Angelus so I'm willing to buy the theory that he and Angel were only intimate once. Though the emotional as opposed to the physical definition of intimacy is a good interpretation as well. Anything works for me so long as it doesn't directly contradict the fact that the boys shagged like rabid weasels back in the day. ;)