Francine - harvest
I Blame the Dutch mpoetess
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Hrrm.


Feeling vaguely better about next week's Buffy ep.



http://www.btvs-tabularasa.net/episodes/Spikefeeds/6-19sfeed.htm

is Dori's Spikefeed for it.

Now, granted, it's written from the POV of a redemptionist (which I still maintain that I'm not, exactly) and a B/S shipper (which I am most assuredly not) and it definitely fills in motivations based on what that particular viewer wants to see in it. But based on the way it's described (in much more detail than Leoff's wildfeed, because he's big on still letting you enjoy the show, while Dori is just skimming for Spike parts) I'm a little more comfortable with the scene being more like what I was expecting. Still harsh, still disturbing, but much more immediate remorse on Spike's part, and shock when he realizes what almost happened, than I got from the general ep wildfeed.


__

Thought, for self, and maybe to clarify my position on where I fall on the evil-Spike spectrum: I don't mind him being sincerely, severely fucked up. I think they *all* are; he's just the most concrete, loud, obvious example of it.

I just don't think we're dealing with Jess' hungry psychopath, quite. That's what Spike would like to believe he is, but I don't buy that he's *ever* been that. From someone who knows a few diagnosed psychotics, Spike isn't. It's a real world analogy that doesn't quite fit what he is. He's a creature in between worlds, not knowing which one he's ever going to be able to exist in. Which is, as I said, severely fucked up. Dangerous, I'll agree. But dangerous doesn't always equal untrustworthy, depending on who you are to him.

I just don't think "fucked up" always has to equal eternal gloom and darkness. Or even eternal bloody rage. I know quite a few people who fall easily into the fucked up category, self included. Different level of fucked up, granted, from "I'm designed to kill for food and fun, but I've been shoved into a life where that isn't possible, and an emotional situation where the person I love doesn't want me to even *want* to do that anymore, and I'm not entirely capable of doing that, and oh by the way, she doesn't love me and tells me constantly that I can't *ever* change."

Hrrm, as I say. That's just a brief thought on it. A psychological thought, not a moral one; I'm so done with trying to argue/discuss/cuss/suss the general morality of spike -- or most of the BtvS characters. Because they really are *all* fucked up, and I'm tired of defending one to one person, and one to another, and bleh. Pissed at them, I am. Pissed at some of the storytelling choices (though not nearly as WTF????? as I am at the Angel Podverse) and pissed (as I'm meant to be) at the characters, but I still love 'em. Even Spike.


iroshi

2002-04-30 11:17 am (UTC) (Link)

Yeah, and they're about to kill off the only un-fucked-up character they've got. That's probably *why* they're killing her off, come to think of it. She makes everybody else look bad, because if *she* handles all this shit without going crazy, why didn't they? :)

witchwillow

2002-04-30 12:27 pm (UTC) (Link)

not strictly true, the dearhearted one did mess up a spell to find demons, then cast one to obscure demons...so she has been shown having her own insecurities. But it seemed like that, and magical misuse are her only things.

But I won't disagree w/ you that she has been the most mature one there. Forced to the point by her mother's death, and the solid conviction that if she didn't live her life now, she wouldn't ever get the chance because...birthday=demon..

Just a one off...yeah yeah..finding another urn of Orirus would be a bitch..but Anya - demony again. So if Willow going to respect Tara's wishes about dark magic.. Or Buffy's pain at losing heavan and not resurrect her ?

Is this a way to have her deal with her guilt (years of survivor guilt, magic guilt, buffy guilt, insecurity guilt) in one fell swoop ?

Seperate rant now:

Is anyone going to even send Giles and email ? I mean for pity's sake. It's not like he's on the WB. He should have been more involved...

Re:

iroshi

2002-04-30 02:16 pm (UTC) (Link)

not strictly true, the dearhearted one did mess up a spell to find demons, then cast one to obscure demons...so she has been shown having her own insecurities.

I wouldn't call that insecurity. She thought she WAS a demon at the time. I'd call it self-defense. And her arguments against magical misuse aren't an insecurity, they're common sense! Mind you, I would've phrased it differently...it wasn't that Willow was using too much magic, it was that she used DARK magics at all...but then, I'm just a witch, not a TV script-writer. :)

Just a one off...yeah yeah..finding another urn of Orirus would be a bitch..but Anya - demony again. So if Willow going to respect Tara's wishes about dark magic.. Or Buffy's pain at losing heavan and not resurrect her ?

I'm sorry, but ya lost me through part of that.
1. Didn't they say that was the LAST urn of Osiris?
2. Anya - demony - so? I can see a place for justice demons in the scope of the world. I could wish they'd use a little more common sense. I mean, Halfrick, could we THINK a little? Trapping them in the house, yeah, like that's gonna help the girl...when they run out of food in a few days?
3. I seriously doubt Willow's going to respect Tara's wishes after she's dead. Especially during rage/grief right afterwards.

Is anyone going to even send Giles and email ? I mean for pity's sake. It's not like he's on the WB. He should have been more involved...

Maybe they're still pissed at him for leaving in the first place. ^_^ I would be. I mean, there's a difference between parenting a person and parenting a bird. You really

witchwillow

2002-04-30 03:08 pm (UTC) (Link)

I wouldn't call that insecurity. She thought she WAS a demon at the time. I'd call it self-defense.

well true. But I was also thinking in context, of here she is, dropped into a new world (as far as Scooby life goes) where demons are common place. Anya's an ex demon, Spike's a vampire...etc...The insecurity I was talking about, was from what was drilled into her pfrom her father & co ..that she'd become a monster...here she was thinking that even these folk would run, stop liking her etc...she'd lose Willow's friendship.

so she has been shown having her own insecurities. But it seemed like that, and magical misuse are her only things.


I was trying to say, that, she was shown w/ insecurities that led to grey behavior. But she's the type who fessed up, and tried to fix. She grows. And yes, her arguments against magical use/ magical dependency...is a Tara..trademark? As the voice of reason..and I've always felt disatisfied that they never got in depth about magic vs dark magic...vs law of return...etc..etc..etc..It kinda got shoved out the window by Glory...see my lj theories

Ok, starting from scratch. I was trying to say that we've had a chance to see Tara adapt, grow, mature, juggle responsibility, be steadfast, recover etc...we've seen her struggle in her quiet private way, then come out on top.

I was trying to say, that she isn't that much different from the scoobies in what life throws at her. But her reactions and their reactions are oceans apart.

My mention of Willow-Anya, was that, my first thought is why doesn't Willow just bring her back. And the jar or last jar of osirus aside, if Anya's a demon again, surely she knows someone who knows of another spell, or is a wronged loss of love vengenance demon or something...

And I was wondering if she'd take enough of what Tara would want into consideration to not even attempt that. Or if it's the guilt of ripping Buffy from heavan that prevents her, or if she's just all consumed by rage...which, granted, we won't know until we see it. But..I'm wondering all the same.

As for her respecting Tara's wishes against dark magic, on principle, with Tara freshly dead...well..I don't think that's possible...I don't think she'd be thinking clearly...And I guess maybe that's the point. If this whole thing really is an addiction analogue..then it's way too soon, for her not to give in under circumstances this compelling.

As for them being pissed at him for leaving...when I think of Giles, my head flips around. Because there are just so many povs that I see. I've been trying to figure out if they're intentionally created a hole for his abscence by not throwing a line that Dawn got a letter from him recently, and he sent her funny money (pound notes). Or that Willow's been deleting his emails..or something...

I just...I can't wrap my mind around him being so concerned at what Willow did..from a magical user perspective..and just walking away. I can't see him washing his hands of them all in disgust..
Grow up Buffy, get over heaven..
or
I killed half a human for her re: Ben ...

And then, even though the Scoobies aren't supposed to know he did kill Ben. Emotionally, is it so different from Warren? They both toyed and played with the gang to get what they wanted, endangered members of the group...and weren't sorry for it. If Glory wasn't stopped through Ben, she's do it again to get her own way. If Warren isn't stopped in a manner that's rips him of all revenge possibilites ..he's free to do it again. The very fact that for all his hamming he just went for it with a gun, kinda prooves that to me..

Much rambling...end point is..I liked Tara, and I'll miss her. And this is one time, when I'm greatful for FanFic....


Willow goes to read through her own story plot points...and pets all the pretty Tara moments

mpoetess

2002-04-30 03:11 pm (UTC) (Link)

I think ~Willow~ meant that since Anya is now demony, Willow could use her to either wish the creation of another Urn, or just wish Tara back alive.

Actually, one wonders why she *doesn't* -- (unless she does, sinece there are pics released that show post-Tara Willow confronting Anya in the Magic Box, but no news on what about) because she *is* a wronged woman. Not by Tara, but by Warren. If Cordy can make a wish like "I wish Buffy Summers had never come to Sunnydale" and have it ceom true even though it wasn't directed specifically against Xander, just a wish to make her life better, surely Anyanka could grant a similar wish to Willow. Possibly vengeance demons don't have the power to bring people back from the dead, of course. Though given that they can create alterante universes where people currently living are already dead, it would be a bit of a convenience for Joss to say "Oh, except of course they can't create ones where someone you love who's dead is still alive."

I think that issue will be avoided entirely, though, by Willow not *knowing* Anya's a demon again. Not sure.

As for whether Willow will respect Tara's wishes on resurrection, there are spoilers on that issue, but I don't know if anyone wants to know them *that* far ahead.

kita0610

2002-04-30 01:20 pm (UTC) (Link)

That's what makes 'em SO. COOL. That they're all fucked up! Otherwise, you're watching Seventh Heaven, and personally, I'd rather have my lungs removed through my nose.

I can't say I agree with you that remorse makes any difference to me one way or the other. If a guy tried to rape me, but felt *really really* bad about it, I'd still want his shnartz on a silver platter, and I'd still have serious concerns about any woman who defended him to me.

BUT and this is a BIG BUT- that's not, for lack of a better term, 'your' Spike. You said last night you felt bad because the Spike you write about isn't the psychopath that Jess writes about. That's fine. Spike is capable of being sweet, and you write about that, and if you want to ascribe different motivations to it in your stories, and people enjoy the results, and you feel good about it...well then, who the fuck cares?? Party on, and enjoy. You don't need to 'defend' that to anyone.

Personally, I think Spike and Angel are both capable of extreme and horrible acts of pure evil, that can be almost-defined by sociopathy. (Almost because in the real world, nothing like what they are exists) I think that in the real world, they should both be set apart from society, because they would kill more people than they are capable of helping, and it just isn't worth the risk, based on their past AND current behaviors. I think that the way the Scoobies handle Spike (ie treating him like shit while letting him and/or making him do favors for them) is insane, and morally wrong. Either stake the mass murderer, or let him go, but don't spend your time baiting him. By that theory, we should round up all the criminals and just poke fun at them a whole lot.

But no one in the Jossverse is perfect, no one is the moral center, except for Tara, and we all know where that's going. Ambiguity babe. Name of the game.

Which is all to say, you can pick and choose. I pick one side, you pick the other, so? Long as we all respect one another in the morning.


mpoetess

2002-04-30 02:26 pm (UTC) (Link)

I can't say I agree with you that remorse makes any difference to me one way or the other. If a guy tried to rape me, but felt *really really* bad about it, I'd still want his shnartz on a silver platter, and I'd still have serious concerns about any woman who defended him to me.

That wasn't what I was concerned about -- I was concerned that one more general description of the events didn't show Spike being shocked when he realized what had just happened -- didn't show him realizing that to Buffy, who's the one who matters, this *was* an attempted rape -- until much later. There was no mention of him saying anything to her, expressing that it wasn't what he meant, etc.

I'm not talking about saying he's *sorry* -- I'm saying that the second rundown of events seems to indicate more clearly when he realizes he's done something terrible, and how little he understood what effect it was happening until that point.

But -- no, we're not ever going to agree on what is and isn't forgivable in situations where it comes down to... well, Buffy's POV, I suspect. A woman's POV, a feminist's POV, whichever. I'm still going to maintain that Buffy herself contributed to the ambiguity of the situation, and Spike's confusion, and it's not in any way the same thing as saying she was asking for it because she wore a short skirt, and dammit, look. I'm discussing Buffyverse -- and real -- morality. Again. And it makes my head hurt.

BUT and this is a BIG BUT- that's not, for lack of a better term, 'your' Spike. You said last night you felt bad because the Spike you write about isn't the psychopath that Jess writes about. That's fine. Spike is capable of being sweet, and you write about that, and if you want to ascribe different motivations to it in your stories, and people enjoy the results, and you feel good about it...well then, who the fuck cares?? Party on, and enjoy. You don't need to 'defend' that to anyone.

No, last night I said I felt bad that the Spike I write about doens't appear to be the Spike onscreen. And that's what bugs me about this. What makes me *still* feel badly about my own series. Because the implicit "Jess' Spike is now once and for all proven to be the canon Spike" makes me feel like I'm writing deliberate character-AU's, and prettifying something that isn't like that in canon. I.e., I've retroactively become a fluffy teenyhead.

I look back at something like Small Fry -- which admittedly was a llight AU in the first place, but had reasonably canonical characterization at that point, and think "Anyone reading this just coming into it is going to think we're *nuts* -- writing fluffy four year old stories about a date rapist."

So yeah, it still disturbs me. Because the implication is that I'm picking up on one facet of Spike's personality -- his ability to be tender -- and ascribing motivations to it that don't match what's being demonstrated onscreen.

Spike, Angel, Tara, ambiguity, yes. Agreed.

(Shhh... spoilery new icon...)


kita0610

2002-04-30 02:44 pm (UTC) (Link)

GUH to the icon.

Have you seen the other spoilery Willow pics on Slayage.com?

And although I kinda get where you're coming from, I dunno...Jess and I do DOOUL, and it's silly and so un-canon it's absurd, but it's fun. So long as stuff is well written, I can't worry about what else people think.

Peace

-D

mpoetess

2002-04-30 03:23 pm (UTC) (Link)

Yes, have seen dark!willow. She's adorable. She looks like Lydia Deetz from Beetlejuie.

Yeah, on DOUUL. But then, you've also mentioned that it moving further and further away from canon bugs you, and it hasn't been as fun anymore (for you; it's certainly fun for me), partially because of that and partially because you feel like you're treading the same ground. New setting for sex in a public place.

I'm somewhere in the middle on the write it because it's fun and don't worry what people think issue. Yes, no, maybe. Someone who shall remain nameless once commented that sometimes the stories James and I do for fun, *look* like they're being done for fun, but at the expense of the story. And it kind of stung, not in an insulting way, but a "Really? Fuck." way, because I'd hoped we were managing to both have fun and write a good story.

kita0610

2002-04-30 04:19 pm (UTC) (Link)

DOOUL is less fun because it got redundant more than anything. Yea, also the move away from canon, but honestly, it's not like it was ever IN canon to begin with. Mostly, it just got old to write. Thanks for saying it didn't get old to read. Don'tcha know people feel that way about your stuff as well? That's the thing, I guess, is WHY do you write? If it's to please yourself, then fuck what nameless said. That's sort of the point it got to with Jess and I, because we *were* writing to please others, mainly underaged fans who can't spell, and send us death threats, but I digress *G*. I think you manage to both have fun and write well. I ENJOY your dark stuff more because that's what I'm into. But you have never written anything, even if the subject matter wasn't to my taste, that I ( or anyone else in their right mind) could call poorly written. You rock, dear.

Re: Anya and wishes

Anonymous

2002-04-30 05:16 pm (UTC) (Link)

Hi,
I've never posted on your journal before, and I hope you don't mind me chiming in here. (If you do, I'm very sorry. Just skip this, and I won't do it again.)

Anyway…

<
[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<actually,>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

Hi,
I've never posted on your journal before, and I hope you don't mind me chiming in here. (If you do, I'm very sorry. Just skip this, and I won't do it again.)

Anyway…

<<Actually, one wonders why she [Willow] *doesn't* [have Anya wish Tara alive]-- (unless she does, sinece there are pics released that show post-Tara Willow confronting Anya in the Magic Box, but no news on what about) because she *is* a wronged woman. Not by Tara, but by Warren. If Cordy can make a wish like "I wish Buffy Summers had never come to Sunnydale" and have it ceom true even though it wasn't directed specifically against Xander, just a wish to make her life better, surely Anyanka could grant a similar wish to Willow.>>

Maybe. But I think people are missing a pattern here. Wishes made to a vengeance demon don't turn out to make the wisher's life better. Damn, I feel like I'm treading on a minefield here, but one thing we have to remember is: Anyanka(sp?) is a demon. And while I know demons come both "good" and "bad" in the Buffyverse (and I agree that this is a good thing for the growth of the characters and the show) Anyanka is not really one of the good ones.

Okay, let me explain. Look at "The Wish". Cordy is wronged. Cordy makes a wish. The universe goes all to hell, and Cordy--the woman wronged-- dies in an interesting way. When Giles summons Anyanka, is she worried? Upset that she caused the death of her "client"? No. She almost purrs that this world is sooo much more interesting than the old one. Why? 'Cos she's a demon. In fact, I wouldn't be overly surprised if all her "clients" ended up suffering for their wishes.

And then there's Halfrack (sp?). Someone mentioned in passing how stupid it was to lock Dawn up in a house when the food would run out if she was trying to help her… But that's just it. I don't really think Halfrack was trying to help her. Dawn made a wish. She granted it. It would have eventually lead to the deaths of everyone in the house…but Halie didn't care about that. Why? Um…'cos she's a vengence demon. Just because she could "hear" Dawn hurting, and had to act, doesn't mean that she wanted to help her feel better. It just meant, that as a demon, she saw her chance to do her stuff. --Besides, if Dawn (and everyone close to her) were dead, She wouldn't be hurting anymore, would she.

So, in regards to Willow wishing Tara back from the dead though Anyanka--::shudders, seeing Tara come back rotting and insane like the son of the old couple in "The Monkey's Paw". Or worse, Tara being part demon, coming back *as* the demon she was always afraid of being….::

Am I over-stating this in regards to Ayna? Maybe. She has been human for awhile, and she's learned how to be kind…mostly. <g> But even after she's human again, she doesn't just become all "of the good" right away. She works with Vamp!Willow in "Doppelganger Land" and then there's the whole graduation thing. Anya seems to be falling for Xander…but when he won't do as he's told, she wishes him dead. Has she been growing since she became human? Yes, no doubt about it. But, does that mean that as a demon, she could make wishes come out to the good? Without having a darker purpose? ::shrugs:: All is possible under Joss, I guess. Which is kind of a scary thought, now….

<<Possibly vengeance demons don't have the power to bring people back from the dead, of course. Though given that they can create alterante universes where people currently living are already dead, it would be a bit of a convenience for Joss to say "Oh, except of course they can't create ones where someone you love who's dead is still alive." >>

LOL. Or ones where people remember past events and act with a reasonable sense of continuity apparently. <g>

<<I think that issue will be avoided entirely, though, by Willow not *knowing* Anya's a demon again. Not sure. >>

I hope so… for previously stated reasons.

<<As for whether Willow will respect Tara's wishes on resurrection, there are spoilers on that issue, but I don't know if anyone wants to know them *that* far ahead.>>

::holding my breath to see how this one turns out, and hoping Joss is more on the ball then he has been lately::

Thanks for listening, and sorry to take up so much space.

Ghost

Re: Anya and wishes

Anonymous

2002-04-30 05:44 pm (UTC) (Link)

Sorry Sorry

Just realized that I screwed up the formating on my post and lost the text I was replying to. ::bangs head into desk. Hard::

Anyway... it was in responce to Mad Poetess' earlier letter about Willow maybe wishing Tara back by useing Ayna.

Shoot me now.

Ghost ::the very tired::

Re: Anya and wishes

mpoetess

2002-05-01 11:53 am (UTC) (Link)

Heh. You put it in html brackets, so it's not displaying. I got it in the e-mail notification from LJ, though.

Comment away!

Re: Anya and wishes

mpoetess

2002-05-01 11:59 am (UTC) (Link)

While I'm in agreement that the Scoobies should be smart enough by now to know that vengeance wishes -- even those that, like Dawn's, don't seem to be intended to harm -- almost always cause trouble, I don't believe Willow's going to be in any condition to have that amount of sensible judgement.

On Anya/Anyanka -- I don't think we're intended to believe that they're different people. Anya getting her powers back is Anya with powers. It's not like human - soul + demon = vampire= new person or vampire + soul = new person. This is just Anya + or - powers. So she isn't any more "good" or "bad" than the Anya we knew three weeks ago was. She doesn't suddenly change personality or turn evil because she got her powers back, and so if Willow does know she's a vengeance demon again, there's no reason for her to assume she would glory in the chaos of a monkey's paw - type wish on purpose.

But again, don't think Willow is going to be having anything remotely approaching reason, so we'll have to see how she ends up acting.

Re: Anya and wishes

Anonymous

2002-05-01 02:58 pm (UTC) (Link)

::g:: Hi again. Ignoring the whole format issue tonight. LOL

~~While I'm in agreement that the Scoobies should be smart enough by now to know that vengeance wishes -- even those that, like Dawn's, don't seem to be intended to harm -- almost always cause trouble, I don't believe Willow's going to be in any condition to have that amount of sensible judgement.~~

True. I don't think any of us would be thinking rationally after watching a loved one die. And, like you, I really don't think that it's going to be an issue. Willow has more then enough power/experience to create a little-- or a lot-- of vengeance/going-against-the-natural-order, on her own, and from the spoilers I think she's going to be pretty pro-active in that category. I was just 'what if'ing with the idea of using Anya to bring Tara back.

I am worried about what deals Willow might make on her own, to bring Tara back. (Notice I can't just let Tara stay dead. I *like* Tara…::sigh::)

~~On Anya/Anyanka -- I don't think we're intended to believe that they're different people. Anya getting her powers back is Anya with powers. It's not like human - soul + demon = vampire= new person or vampire + soul = new person. This is just Anya + or - powers. So she isn't any more "good" or "bad" than the Anya we knew three weeks ago was. She doesn't suddenly change personality or turn evil because she got her powers back, and so if Willow does know she's a vengeance demon again, there's no reason for her to assume she would glory in the chaos of a monkey's paw - type wish on purpose. ~~

Ah. I don't think I expressed myself very well with this one. I was sort of thinking it through at the same time as I wrote. ::sheepish grin:: Anyway, I *don't* think that " human - soul + demon = vampire= new person or vampire + soul = new person" (::g:: I wonder if that really could work as an equation? H-s+D=v over NP? Heh.) You're absolutely right. Anya with her powers is still Anya. Rather, I wonder how much…not control, really, but…understanding about the effects of her powers Anya has. And by that I don't mean that she doesn't "get" what happens when she uses her powers…just that she spent a *lot* of years not *caring* what effects she caused. Learning to care about the effect of what she said and did had on the people around her was a *huge* part of her learning to be human. So when I say that her bringing Tara back would probably lead to a very bad thing, I don't think she would do it on purpose. I don't think she would *try* to hurt Willow or Tara (Xander maybe…just a little-- but not Will). I think it would be *unintentional*. Her powers come not of the good…and I wonder if she could stop the negative consequences, even if she wanted to...

~~But again, don't think Willow is going to be having anything remotely approaching reason, so we'll have to see how she ends up acting.~~

Yep. And how far away from character the writers venture.

Ghost

Seeing Red rape scene

Anonymous

2002-05-04 04:23 am (UTC) (Link)

Hi
Hate to think I might be spoiling your better mood about next week's episode, but I was really surprised at the Spikefeed representation of this scene. Having seen 'Seeing Red', the scene is quite overtly an attempted rape. Though S doesn't go into the scene in anything like that mood -- it does come across as something that gets out of control -- he's clearly trying to force her without reference to her interest or pleasure. It's not ambiguous at all, at least I don't think so. In a later scene yes he is miserable, but mainly about the general state of Spike's life despite flash cuts to the rape scene. And his departure is all the most simple 'angry threatening Spike' the show's ever given us. I'd have to say it seems inconsistent with the writing of Spike across the series as a whole precisely because it doesn't seem at all ambivalent. It seemed as if the main narrative intention was straightforwardly to shock anyone who believed Spike 'really' could 'really' love her. Interesting that the direction seemed to be making visual links between the rape scene and Spike's time in the initiative, but not interesting enough to make it anything but a relatively weak piece of writing in terms of character continuity. Not because I'm devoted to a nicer version of Spike, or anything, but because it just seems too simple to sustain any intelligent interest in Spike's complexity.
Cat.