Francine - harvest
I Blame the Dutch mpoetess
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Just. Tired.

I wish I didn't care about being labeled insane, delusional...

But my mother is, and I was raised by people who believed it was something awful and horrible and her fault and we should all be ashamed of it. I know better intellectually, but it's a pretty fucking big stigma for me. There are reasons I avoid considering seeing a shrink about potential depression, and that's a big one. So yeah, it pisses me off, and it hits me hard, and like someone poking at their own wounds, I keep reading people who I know are going to question my sanity, vocally, because I'm not jumping on the Kill Spike Now bandwagon. Because I *don't* think what happened makes him forever lost.

I wish I didn't see "And this means you, Amy" in every post where people are screaming their frustration and anger and rage at anyone who doesn't hate Spike because of the events of this episode. But I don't hate him, and I do see it, and it makes me tired and hurt and just.

Like I'm now never allowed to write anything with my viewpoint character, the one I've come to know from inside, tried to understand his conflicts, tried to treat Buffy fairly as a character, see her values in his eyes, defend her to the slashtwits who make her the Big Bitch Villain, when I personally can't fucking stand her... And I can't write him without bowing and scraping and disclaimering "But this is an AU Spike. I'm not trying to whitewash him. Real Spike is bad and evil and can't be saved and isn't worth being saved, and should be staked now, now, now." And even the disclaimer won't work. It really won't. I'll still be one of *Them* The ones who can ratiionalize anything away and you'd never want to trust us in a room with your innocent kids.

Fuck it.

Fuck it, fuck it, fuck it.

I'm going to go outside and eat worms, kay?


2002-05-09 10:16 am (UTC) (Link)

I need sword carrying, ass kicking icon for posts/replies like this. Watch this space/or my journal. I'm going to hunt and find it.

I mentioned you specifically in some of the stuff I wrote. Because I knew/felt that you might take this to heart, and react this way about the Spike you write.

My response is let someone else fuck 'em Cause I wouldn't want to touch them with a 10ft pole.

Granted, a lot of this is because if feels as if they can't understand that what they're writing can effect people like this.

As if they don't get that he is a character and there is no story without shades of grey. Otherwise, why write/tell the story in the first place.

Human beings and fictional characters are not one dimensional. We, humans have many layers, parts, thoughts, ideas, ideologies, theories etc. It's what makes us a fucking marvel from the heavens.

And good characters reflect that. Whether we're calling those characters, Klingon, Nitzchean, Vampire or Dog.

The insanity bit has been a trigger for me too. Which is why some of my stuff is comments off.

(((((((AMY <-- wonderful person, spectacular writer, absolutely beleivable Spike voice )))))))))


2002-05-09 10:24 am (UTC) (Link)

:-) Thanks -- but I wasn't really doubting whether my Spike(s) are believable. I'm just -- losing it. Because now I feel like, no matter how "believable" any past or future spike characterization I might write ill be, I will be judged for writing it. I will be judged for caring about the character. There will be those who will like it, and they will be judged too.

And I feel like I;m supposed to sit and take it, bob my head and say yup, you're right, I was wrong, Joss fucked me over, it's my fault for being stupid. Please ma'am, may I go away to my fluffy AU series and watch the piranhas spawn, because at least there I won't be violating anybody's concept of womanhood or sanity if I care about little fluffy deliberately semi-OOC DP Spike. Except yeah, I still will.


2002-05-09 10:56 pm (UTC) (Link)

Don't care what happens in canon any more. Your stories are far more real to me than anything which occurs onscreen.


2002-05-09 10:27 am (UTC) (Link)

Don't like Spike. Never did. Hating current rationalizations of Spike's actions in other quarters. Defend to death your right to write Spike whatever the hell way you see fit and justify (or *not* justify) his actions any way you choose. Creative license, readers may take or leave. Agree that throwing around accusations of mental illness unwise at best, derogatory and nasty at worst. Also have private reasons for feeling this way. Fuck the world's stigmas.

(Don't much like Buffy either, honestly...if Spike is in fact irredeemably evil, wouldn't her *consensual* activities with him previously put her in the category of collaborator? There, now that I've opened yet another can of worms, off I go into the wild blue yonder.)


2002-05-09 01:46 pm (UTC) (Link)

I don't think what Spike did is excusable, and anybody trying to say she *deserved* it... no. No fucking way. Nobody deserves to be hurt like that, scared lke that.

Only thing that gets me down is an apparent widespread assumption that anyone who does like Spike, who saw his viewpoint before, and doesn't hate him now, doesn't condemn *him* roundly on all fronts, vs. his actions in this instance, is among the same group as those (there really are people saying this?) who say that what he did is *okay* because of ... x psychological reason.

I don't think Buffy sleeping with him, if he were irredemably evil, would precisely make her a collaborator. If he were, and she truly knew it, truly felt it vs what I see as her being conflicted about that, onscreen, and she still used him for sex, because he's hot and he makes her feel wanted... yeah, I'd have a lot less respect for her than, in fact, I do. (Because her behavior, while I don't like it, *has* been about being confused, and not knowing, for quite a while, that she was using him, as well as wanting to deny that his feelings could possibly be real.)

But say it was Angelus. Say she slept with him, in Season 2, because a) she was desperate for the fiction of someone she truly loved, that wore his face and voice and b) Angelus was *part* of Angel, and possibly she did still love him, even after everything he did.

Would I be disappointed in her? Yeah. But I'd understand it, and I wouldn't call it an evil or immoral act on her part.



2002-05-09 01:50 pm (UTC) (Link)

In the context of any ordinary woman sleeping with Spike, I'd call it a dreadful mistake and, as we all know, dreadful mistakes do happen. But yes, the idea that this girl whose lone generational destiny is to slay vampires and battle the world-destroying evil that would result were they unleashed has now slept with the enemy not once, but twice...disturbs me, and perhaps it's meant to. Makes me think of that speech Spike had in "Fool for Love" when he essentially told Buffy that a Slayer is destined (cursed?) to identify first and foremost with her target prey and not other human beings.


2002-05-09 10:31 am (UTC) (Link)

Sweetie, no one means you. I saw what you wrote, and mostly agree with it. This scene has made me more doubtful about whther Spike will be changed, because the impact of it is going to be hard for *viewers* to let go of. But I still think it's a major possibility. I've just never believed that Spike as he is NOW is redeemable.

Mainly, you haven't been trying to excuse Spike by laying blame on Buffy, which is the attitude that has people upset. And some redemptionistas *have* been claiming Spike was redeemed already. You're just claiming he's redeemable. Huge massive difference.


2002-05-10 07:23 am (UTC) (Link)

Yeah, I'm...unsure. Really unsure, what the hell they're planning. I thought I had a general hunch about what they were doing with him -- even after this scene. But thebratqueen brought up some comments made by Steve DeKnight that make we wonder if the idea is to have the viewers hating him so much that they'll buy him unrelentingly evil when he rueturns, or whether it's another mindfuck, if he returns changed, and then *we* have to get over thinking he's the same person.

I don't know. I'm still going with "comes back changed" but honestly? Marti Noxon just makes me nervous, because her concept of storytelling sems to be "Make what I want to happen, happen, when I feel like it" instead of working at it through character development and skillful foreshadowing.


2002-05-09 10:47 am (UTC) (Link)

I'll leave eloquence to the two people who've already posted. They've done a fine job of touching on all the major points in any response I could come up with.

Instead, I'll just offer a straight forward *hug* to you.


2002-05-09 11:54 am (UTC) (Link)

Not sure if this will come out right, or even if I have the right to say anything at all (we don't know each other outside of me being a huge fan of yours and my comments the last couple of days. If I am treading where I shouldn't just tell me and I'll slink away).

I am so sorry you are hurting about this. I am sorry that others are attacking you based on a scene in a TV show and their interpretation of what it means. Personally, as I have said before, I agree with you and your thoughts on the whole matter, so I may be biased in that respect. I think it sucks that 1) you feel that your future work will be measured against that one scene and 2) people will do that.

I think that it is important to remember that there are more shows coming. Spike will continue to develop and change and so will our reactions to him as a character. I mean, when he showed up in Season two there were very few who started Buffy/Spike shipping right away, and then there are those, like you, who can create wonderful and believable relationships between Spike and Xander.

Please, Amy, believe that fans like me (who live in awe of your talent and are occasional hacks) will continue to read your Spike with respect and admiration.



2002-05-09 12:27 pm (UTC) (Link)

I don't think anyone is directly attacking me -- I'm not that paranoid.

I just feel like everyone who says "You're all nuts" and then clarifies "Except people who feel this way and this way, and you and you..." misses the point. I have to fit into one of those special little boxes, if I'm to be not one of the Great Unmedicated. I have to disapprove of the Spuffy because Spike is evil, or I have to have grooved on the Spuffy because it was sick, and interesting.

I didn't; I hated the Spuffy because I don't like Spike and Buffy together. I hated the Spuffy because I'm not fond of Buffy. I would have hated it if it were sweet and passionate and showed Spike truly deciding to turn over a new leaf, and I hated the way it actully did go. I hate all of it. I don't disapprove of an essentially "good" person falling for a character like Spike -- I have defended Spuffy in that arena because I'm defending Spike, not Buffy. And been lumped with Spuffy shippers because of this -- because I like Spike. Because I find him a character who, if one looks through his eyes, has as much pain and conflict as the rest of them -- and if one looks through other characters' eyes, can have emotional value to them as well.

So, I don't fit in the "approved" boxes, and am therefore among the prejudged masses of disturbed idiots. And nobody seems to get that the concept of defining the little boxes in the first place is insulting to everybody. Even, frankly, the people who fit in them.

Ahem. /end rant, not remotely directed at you. {And not directed at Kita, either. I think I understand (though don't agree with) where she's coming from, and she's been nothing but honest and personally kind, and while I'm frustrated that there are things we're never going to agree on, I totally respect her and her feelings.}

Yes, you're right -- there will be more shows. It doesn't end here. Granted, I'm torn between what I *thought* I saw happening in the future, and fearing Marti Noxon and the Anvil of Doom because of things thebratqueen has posted about production stuff, but...

Re: this post and some on TBQ's LJ


2002-05-09 12:46 pm (UTC) (Link)

Hey, Amy-

No, we're never gonna agree. And no, you weren't ever meant to be the one offended by my initial post, written immediately after the show aired, or by any of the posts thereafter.

I like you, your writing, and your brain.

I am not the paragon of mental health. I am not the morality police. I make no claims to any of these, and I cannot judge you, cause, frankly, I don't really know you. Nor you me.

I just can't wrap my mind around many of the things you say, and seem to feel.

(Don't think for a minute you're the only one who reads posts and hears "THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" in every one. Hello, me too living that now.)

And I feel like I'm banging my head into a wall when I hear that 'Buffy's rape makes her less likable', or that 'Spike had reasons for doing what he did', or that 'since the scene wasn't planned years in advance it doesn't count'.

Yea, where I'm coming from is black and white for me, in a way that few things are. It is this: NOTHING diminishes the horror of rape. Nothing. And to see it bandied about so lightly, "oh it's fiction, oh she's strong, she can deal, oh he can be good sometimes, cut him a break" seems to be so simplistic and misogynystic that it breaks my heart hearing WOMEN saying these things.

I fear for my son, and the world he is growing up in if views like this persist. I am by no means ever personally attacking you, WitchWillow, TBQ, etc. or any of your writing, or your ideas. But .. I can never in a million years ken them.





2002-05-09 12:08 pm (UTC) (Link)

I'm sorry you're tired and vexed about how slashwits are reacting to your stance on Spike. Your stance has always made sense to me, and I love having someone see him as a complex, layered character struggling with the chip, and his feelings, and identity. I DO NOT think you are in any way a person I wouldn't trust with my kids, if I had any, and I'm sending a virtual hug your way in hopes you feel better.

And, yeah, I understand about losing a character's voice you thought was as much a part of you as your own. It will be better. Really.

I am, and will always be, a huge fan and admirer of your work.

You sound so sad it makes me want to kick virtual ass, and I'm usually a pacifistic dyke!

Chin up querida.


Re: Sweetie.....


2002-05-09 12:40 pm (UTC) (Link)

Hee. No asskicking need be done on my part. No one has attacked me personally -- I'm just sad because the general condemnation out there makes me feel defensive and marginalized and at some level, *bad* for feeling for a character that, it has been ordained, doesn't deserve to have anyone speak on his behalf.

And I know there are people out there (hi Vali) who are disgusted with some pro-Spike reactions, and with very good reason. I'm disgusted with some of them too. I just wish the whole issue didn't generate so much, well, judgement, on the parts of some fans, not of the characters, but of large groups of people who have complex feelings and thoughts about the characters, that can't be boiled down to "If you still like Spike at all, you're twisted."

Thank you for the hug, and the compliments. I'm glad you've liked my characterizations -- though this post isn't in any way meant to generate some ego-boosting flood of reassurance.

Actually, the slashtwits comment was for *real* slashtwits. People who write Buffy out of character and bash her up and downt he street in their fic in order to a) have fun doing so because they dislike her and b) have what they think is an easy villain. I dislike her at times, can't stand her at times, feel for her at times, and occasionally like her. But I don't feel the need to paint her as a cruel vicious bitch, when she isn't.

Re: Sweetie.....


2002-05-09 01:17 pm (UTC) (Link)

(("If you still like Spike at all, you're twisted." )))

I'm with you in twistedness then. I like his character cause he's multilayered, fascinating and pretty. But the other stuff, I guess we have to agre to disagree on, and that's that.

See above post. (I got your reply in TBQ's LJ, dunno if you read this one yet.)

Christ on a motorcar I wish we could consolidate this conversation in one frelling place.


Re: Sweetie.....


2002-05-09 01:31 pm (UTC) (Link)

Yeah. Peace, really. re various posts. I like you too, Donna, and if we don't agree on some things, we don't agree. Like I said, I respect your feelings about this.

Re the comment circles:

I (or anybody with a paid LJ account) could set up an LJ community for BtVS/Angel discussion. Problem is, what would we call it? BtVS slash discussion? There's non-slashers in the general discussion circles that we all seem to fall into. BtVS fan discussion? There's lots of those out there, and it's likely to attract 14 year olds. BtVS adult critical discussion? BtVS fanwriters-and-fanfic-readers discussion?

It's a cool idea -- with LJ communities, you post from your own LJ, and just pick from a dropdown box to have the post displayed in the community blog instead of in yours. Kinda like Common Street Trash. I just don't know how we'd define it, to fit all the people who tend to do this comment and respond LJ-cycle that we're all in. They're not all wroters, they're not all slashfans, yet saying "Buffy/Angel fans" opens the doors so damn wide...

The one suck is that while anybody could respond with comments, though non-LJ members wouldn't have kicky icons, only LJ people could post an entry to *start* a discussion.

(Deleted comment)

Re: Naming of Names


2002-05-09 02:28 pm (UTC) (Link)

Hmm - what might be better than an LJ community, would be an EZboard type thing. Yeah, they suck for large groups, can be unreliable, but anyone can start a topic, doesn't have to be a member. Some of them even have snazzy icons.

AKA, a posting board forum -- threaded, not like the Bronze, which gives me the shivers. HTML capable so you could post pics if you liked.

Re: Naming of Names


2002-05-10 09:46 pm (UTC) (Link)

Ah, but EZBoard would be yet one more place to go to and would end up creating more fragmentation rather than consolidating the discussion that's already on LiveJournal. And having only LJ folks be able to start a topic would help with keeping the volume to an interesting-but-manageable level and the content to cool discussion rather than 14-year-old drooling (which has its place, I'll admit -- it's just not a place I want to be *g*).

I would be utterly thoroughly thrilled if someone started a Buffyverse LJ community. I would also suggest, in the interest of keeping it to thoughtful discussion and away from one-liners and drool, that the name not immediately identify it as Buffy-related. As you pointed out, that would immediately attract too many people looking for something other than thoughtful adult-level discussion. The name doesn't have to identify it if the bio defines it clearly, and links to the new community from a handful of oft-frequented journals would ensure that the right folks find it.

My suggestion for a name would be either Somber Violins or Darker Than This, but those reflect my Spike-bias and my music bias. Those are the names of a couple of Spike songs I found and promptly fell in love with. Yep, biased biased biased.

Re: Sweetie.....


2002-05-09 09:44 pm (UTC) (Link)

No ego boosting intended. 'Tis the truth.



2002-05-09 02:30 pm (UTC) (Link)

I suspect that there are a lot of us who are currently not hating Spike, and we're just being quiet to avoid confrontation.

Please continue to write him as you see him!


2002-05-09 06:16 pm (UTC) (Link)

Hell, people still write Faith all the fucking time. And she attempted rape against Xander. And was going to murder him.

I don't see what the difference is, personally, other than reverse sexism.



2002-05-10 08:58 pm (UTC) (Link)

sexism is sexism. racism is racism. sexism isn't only man-against-woman, it's woman-against-man. Racism isn't just white against black, it's black against white, asian against mexican, white against asian, race against race. reverse sexism, like reverse racism, is a misleading and inaccurate term.

this has bugged me since i first heard the term in college.