Francine - harvest
I Blame the Dutch mpoetess
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Mixed up vampires

TBQ and Keren both point out quite rightly that Angel(us) draws and paints; Spike wrote poetry when he was human. Having Angel write a poem to Spike or Spike sketching Angel lying naked in bed, doesn't work, and can make you look like, you haven't been watching the show(s).

Though I can see it working in a situation where the author makes it obvious that she's aware of that fact -- for instance, Angel making fun of William's bad poetry, and modern-day Spike challenging him to do better -- or Spike repaying Angel's gift of a naked painting of the two of them together, with stick-figure porn.

Not what I was going to say. What I was going to say was, Joss sort of buggered up his own canon, and confused the newbies, on the drawing!Spike issue. Spike's little shrine to Buffy in the basement of his crypt includes several sketches of her -- so unless they were ones that Angel did, and Spike managed to steal them from Buffy, or rescue them from the mansion/factory-ruins, Spike can at least sketch.

Note that I'm not suggesting people should run with this -- I'm more pointing out that Joss and co. can be just as guilty of muddying their own continuity. Granted, they're allowed, because it's their continuity, or lack thereof -- but it still makes me want to grab somebody and say "Look, we have a group of about 20 diehard fans with eyes, memories, critical thinking skills and in some cases postgraduate degrees. We'll work for free. Please? Please?


2002-06-06 04:10 pm (UTC) (Link)

The fact that it had sketches doesn't necessarily mean he knows how to draw. Esp because the times that we saw him stalking her he was always outside staring wistfully up at her window. If he'd gotten close enough to sit in her window and sketch like Angelus used to I think ME would have shown us.

But the key word there is "I" - that's just my interpretation. Someone could use the sketches to argue that he does draw and that's fine too. I just get bugged when I see people turning him into this full-on artist whenever he's got free time. Esp in stories written pre-"Crush". And esp in stories where in the same story Angel's the one writing poetry. Then I feel like I need to channel Lindsey -

"One has bleached blonde hair! Cockney accent! Scar over his left eyebrow. The other is ANGEL! Dark hair, mopey demeanor, habit of cutting people's body parts off! You tell me how they look alike!"



2002-06-06 04:44 pm (UTC) (Link)

No, I agree with you; there's all kinds of ways to make it work if it's explained (random: Angelus taught Spike to draw; it was something between the two of them, and he's hated Angel for leaving so much that he hasn't used those skills for a hundred years), but playing mix and match with character traits, without supporting them in the context of the story, is annying, and tends to make me question the maturity of the writer, because it has the faintest whiff of Mary-Sueing canon characters.

The Spike sketching thing just occurred to me as an instance where Joss may have muddied his own waters -- i.e. given a character a talent he's never been shown to have previously, just because he found it convenient or poignant.

I do think, though, that the simplest Occam's razor explanation for the sketches in Spike's shrine is that he did them himself. She's not sleeping in them; they appear to be done either from emory or from photgraphs. I would have to do more mental yoga to explain how he'd gotten hold of someone else's sketches of Buffy, than to just accept that he made them.

(no subject) - mpoetess, 2002-06-06 04:46 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - thebratqueen, 2002-06-06 05:26 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Does she have season two hair? - lasayla, 2002-06-07 04:56 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Does she have season two hair? - mpoetess, 2002-06-07 06:41 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mpoetess, 2002-06-07 06:55 am (UTC) (Expand)


2002-06-06 04:13 pm (UTC) (Link)

but it still makes me want to grab somebody and say "Look, we have a group of about 20 diehard fans with eyes, memories, critical thinking skills and in some cases postgraduate degrees. We'll work for free. Please? Please?

I've often thought the same thing.

If I had a tv show (and note, this falls into the if I ruled the world category)

I'd cruise the internet for diehard, intelligent, creative fans and form a causus.

I figure, they beta test games, why not beta test scripts. No doubt writers on a show can become confused and rushed while doing scripts - but factor the beta into the schedule and who knows. Heck, even if it's just every off-season, the caucus runs though the premlimary script ideas, and then breezes over them again before shooting.

Note, Willow is not here, not frightened by probable tornados and will not be surfing the net looking for pictures of her weird space faring fantasy fic starring James Marsters


2002-06-06 04:48 pm (UTC) (Link)

The issues would come from, assuming any producer would take the idea seriously, could he trust diehard fans to not leak spoilers all over hell and beyond. I mean, Joss can't trust his current staff not to do it, and they're... well, fans. I guess. Just not geeks, like us.

(no subject) - witchwillow, 2002-06-06 05:04 pm (UTC) (Expand)


2002-06-06 04:20 pm (UTC) (Link)

But - how many people do we know who can write poetry, who also have other creative talents? How rare is it that someone can draw, and write, and rhyme, and sing?

Not very. Granted, William was allegedly a *bad* poet. But that could have been due to training (he was a newbie) or that formal poetry wasn't his forte and, as someone said in a fic somewhere, it wasn't until he discovered free verse that he came into his own.

So why is it not believable that Spike can draw? Why is the canonical fact that he can, a sign of inconsistency rather than a sign that Spike is a creative person? Heck, I can write poetry, prose, sing, dance, make fabricy stuff, and I can draw. *Most* people I know who can do one artistic thing can do at least one other, or could if trained.


2002-06-06 04:32 pm (UTC) (Link)

In theory (and in RL), this is so -- lots of people are multi-talented. But it can get a bit confusing when trying to assign traits to characters -- the more multi-talented you make them, the easier it is for fans to blur the histories and personalities of the different characters. Especially, er, stupid fans. Of which there are... several, probably.

It's not inconsistent for Joss to show Spike as being able to draw -- it's just confusing, possibly. Especially if it's never been mentioned before, and it's a recurring trait of a character (Angel) to whom Spike is often compared and contrasted.


2002-06-06 04:39 pm (UTC) (Link)

I think for me b/c it's such a trademark thing. Angel being an artist and Spike being a poet are very much their "things". So to me it's kind of pointless that these trademark actions would be given to each other, esp since these habits of theirs have been plot points.

And judges could even grant the Spike drawing thing since god knows canon gives the ability to draw like an expert sketcher to anyone in Sunnydale who needs it for the sake of the plot (see also: Giles) but Angel? A poet? ANGEL?

Also IMO it depends on how you're using it. If you wanted to, say, show Spike making a special picture for Angel then okay. Ditto Angel putting his little heart into trying to write Spike a poem. But if you're showing the characters (as I've seen) kicking back, relaxing and killing some time with Spike drawing and Angel working on sonnets then you've not paid attention to the canon. Angel is the only one we've ever seen in six years who will pass time by drawing. Spike passes time by drinking and watching telly.

Plus it all goes back to believable characterization. Argue all you want for or against Angel being verbal enough to write a poem but what we know from canon is that for Buffy he never did, even when giving her gifts that lent themselves to the inclusion of poetry. And since neither Angel nor the more chatty Angelus felt the need to shower Buffy with iambic pentameter then you're going to need to explain in your story why he's doing that for Spike (or Wes, or Cordy, or whoever) now.

Finally for me this goes back to the "childe" thing - it's way too prevalant for something that's not based on canon. You can move away from canon as much as you like - you can turn Angel into a rodeo clown if that's what your heart desires, but you've got to know the canon first. Finding multiple stories of Spike the artist and Angel the poet (again often in the same fic) tells me that this was some fanon concept that spread like wildfire amongst kidlets who can't be bothered to do their research.

(no subject) - kita0610, 2002-06-06 05:26 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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2002-06-06 05:02 pm (UTC) (Link)

Addendum: another thing that gets on my nerves? Introducing a talent that could conceivably be entertaining to use again, and *not* using it.

Willow plays the piano. She doesn't like to play in front of people, at least not crowds, but you'd think somebody might have remembered this trait once she *stops* being the shy one. Never been mentioned again. And how many fics, post the high-school-story heyday of seaons 2 and 3, have used this? Very few, though it could theoretically be an interesting trait to work with in her relatinship with Tara, who demonstrably is a good singer. But who remembers the little factoid from "The Puppet Show" ? Nobody, because *Joss* doens't even remember it. Willow being able to play the piano isn't a one-off like tiny marshmallows -- it's a piece of early canon.

Me no talk about Anya being able to drive in Graduation Day, but not in Triangle. Me get pissy.


2002-06-06 05:16 pm (UTC) (Link)

Actually, I'd always thought that as more time passed and Anya moved further away from beign a demon, and more and more into being human - the knowledge of *technolgy* gained when she was a demon disappeared.

I've also noticed that except for the wedding, and things pertinent to her. She hasn't excactly been the font of information about demons as one might think. And so it seemed possilbe that even more information had been lost.

And thus, her confidence in finding and doing spells etc, in the season finale; backed up my theory, that demonized again, she's in command of the information resources that some fics portray her as having, a female Giles - from the info standpoint.

Just my little baby thoughts.

(no subject) - kita0610, 2002-06-06 05:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Deleted comment)

Re: Fanfic Sins...


2002-06-07 07:14 am (UTC) (Link)

Those Angelus-did-something-to-Xander AU's aren't so much fanon, I think, as a very popular possible plotline. At least, I've never come across any stories where it seems like the writer took it for granted that this actually happened in canon.

I've used whelp once. Not saying where, la la la.(Um, have also used "rosebud" once. Also not saying where. Though not in CG.)

Re: Fanfic Sins... - stakebait, 2002-06-07 08:25 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Fanfic Sins... - mpoetess, 2002-06-07 08:27 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Fanfic Sins... - stakebait, 2002-06-07 08:41 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Fanfic Sins... - mpoetess, 2002-06-07 09:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Fanfic Sins... - stakebait, 2002-06-07 09:19 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Fanfic Sins... - mpoetess, 2002-06-07 09:22 am (UTC) (Expand)


2002-06-07 02:10 pm (UTC) (Link)

"It lacks... poetry."
"Doesn't have to. What rhymes with lungs?"

~ Angelus and Spike, somewhere in season 2.

The only thing poetic about Angelus is he likes to do the fancy, melodramatic kills, it seems =)

Another fanon item that should be banned


2002-06-08 04:28 am (UTC) (Link)

Out of everything that's been mentioned so far, no one has mentioned the one thing that everyone seems to include: Spike microwaving his blood to a suitable temp before he consumes it.

It. Has. Never. Happened. Onscreen. Ever.

IIRC, every time they've shown Spike getting a mug 'o blood, it's been straight from the fridge. Maybe people get confused because of a scene in 'Something Blue' when Buffy hands Spike a mug while saying "Here you go, Sweetie. Ninety-eight point six."

How she or anyone for that matter would be able to heat blood in a microwave without par-cooking it... the smell alone would put you off. (I've worked with blood way back when I was at University. Spent many a time making blood agar plates. Here's a bit of mostly useless info for MP, a cooked blood agar plate is referred to as chocolate agar. Do you think Spike'd like this type of chocolate?)


Re: Another fanon item that should be banned


2002-06-08 11:07 am (UTC) (Link)

You might want to post this over on thebratqueen's LJ, where we're doing up a list of canon/arguable fanon/annoying fanon items!

Though Spike does microwave his blood in "The Yoko Factor." He gets blood out of the fridge that's already in a mug, in "Hush," true, but in TYF, he comes into Giles flat, and is mircowaving the packet of blood he takes from Giles' freezer, as he's talking to Giles. So I think it's more of a "the writers screwed up" issue, than a fanon one.



2002-06-09 09:42 pm (UTC) (Link)

but in TYF, he comes into Giles flat, and is mircowaving the packet of blood he takes from Giles' freezer, as he's talking to Giles.

That's very interesting. I don't recall that scene at all, which surprises me, given the number of times I watch each ep. Perhaps I was distracted by Giles singing. (Okay, I just checked out the shooting script for the scene. Giles singing, mmmm...)
Soon I'll have S4 on DVD, so I just have to force myself to watch that scene again. 'Tis a heavy burden :^)