Francine - harvest
I Blame the Dutch mpoetess
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Mixed up vampires


TBQ and Keren both point out quite rightly that Angel(us) draws and paints; Spike wrote poetry when he was human. Having Angel write a poem to Spike or Spike sketching Angel lying naked in bed, doesn't work, and can make you look like, well...like you haven't been watching the show(s).

Though I can see it working in a situation where the author makes it obvious that she's aware of that fact -- for instance, Angel making fun of William's bad poetry, and modern-day Spike challenging him to do better -- or Spike repaying Angel's gift of a naked painting of the two of them together, with stick-figure porn.

Not what I was going to say. What I was going to say was, Joss sort of buggered up his own canon, and confused the newbies, on the drawing!Spike issue. Spike's little shrine to Buffy in the basement of his crypt includes several sketches of her -- so unless they were ones that Angel did, and Spike managed to steal them from Buffy, or rescue them from the mansion/factory-ruins, Spike can at least sketch.

Note that I'm not suggesting people should run with this -- I'm more pointing out that Joss and co. can be just as guilty of muddying their own continuity. Granted, they're allowed, because it's their continuity, or lack thereof -- but it still makes me want to grab somebody and say "Look, we have a group of about 20 diehard fans with eyes, memories, critical thinking skills and in some cases postgraduate degrees. We'll work for free. Please? Please?


zortified

2002-06-06 04:20 pm (UTC) (Link)

But - how many people do we know who can write poetry, who also have other creative talents? How rare is it that someone can draw, and write, and rhyme, and sing?

Not very. Granted, William was allegedly a *bad* poet. But that could have been due to training (he was a newbie) or that formal poetry wasn't his forte and, as someone said in a fic somewhere, it wasn't until he discovered free verse that he came into his own.

So why is it not believable that Spike can draw? Why is the canonical fact that he can, a sign of inconsistency rather than a sign that Spike is a creative person? Heck, I can write poetry, prose, sing, dance, make fabricy stuff, and I can draw. *Most* people I know who can do one artistic thing can do at least one other, or could if trained.

mpoetess

2002-06-06 04:32 pm (UTC) (Link)

In theory (and in RL), this is so -- lots of people are multi-talented. But it can get a bit confusing when trying to assign traits to characters -- the more multi-talented you make them, the easier it is for fans to blur the histories and personalities of the different characters. Especially, er, stupid fans. Of which there are... several, probably.

It's not inconsistent for Joss to show Spike as being able to draw -- it's just confusing, possibly. Especially if it's never been mentioned before, and it's a recurring trait of a character (Angel) to whom Spike is often compared and contrasted.


thebratqueen

2002-06-06 04:39 pm (UTC) (Link)

I think for me b/c it's such a trademark thing. Angel being an artist and Spike being a poet are very much their "things". So to me it's kind of pointless that these trademark actions would be given to each other, esp since these habits of theirs have been plot points.

And judges could even grant the Spike drawing thing since god knows canon gives the ability to draw like an expert sketcher to anyone in Sunnydale who needs it for the sake of the plot (see also: Giles) but Angel? A poet? ANGEL?

Also IMO it depends on how you're using it. If you wanted to, say, show Spike making a special picture for Angel then okay. Ditto Angel putting his little heart into trying to write Spike a poem. But if you're showing the characters (as I've seen) kicking back, relaxing and killing some time with Spike drawing and Angel working on sonnets then you've not paid attention to the canon. Angel is the only one we've ever seen in six years who will pass time by drawing. Spike passes time by drinking and watching telly.

Plus it all goes back to believable characterization. Argue all you want for or against Angel being verbal enough to write a poem but what we know from canon is that for Buffy he never did, even when giving her gifts that lent themselves to the inclusion of poetry. And since neither Angel nor the more chatty Angelus felt the need to shower Buffy with iambic pentameter then you're going to need to explain in your story why he's doing that for Spike (or Wes, or Cordy, or whoever) now.

Finally for me this goes back to the "childe" thing - it's way too prevalant for something that's not based on canon. You can move away from canon as much as you like - you can turn Angel into a rodeo clown if that's what your heart desires, but you've got to know the canon first. Finding multiple stories of Spike the artist and Angel the poet (again often in the same fic) tells me that this was some fanon concept that spread like wildfire amongst kidlets who can't be bothered to do their research.

kita0610

2002-06-06 05:26 pm (UTC) (Link)

Ok, here's another fanon(?) thing. Did Angelus break Giles' fingers in B2?? Cause it is in every story, (including my one Giles bit) and I cannot recall it actually occuring in the ep. Did they even show some evidence of this?

While we're at continuity and Angel(us)...who bought that he gave his son "books I liked to read when I was your age"? Hello. When he was Connor's age, wasn't he too busy FUCKING? It's always been my opinion that all that philosophy reading was part of Angel's Catholic Guilt, and had nothing to do with Liam. Now, I suppose he could have given Connor Gulliver's Travels (ok, anachronistic, but whatever), but really. What are the odds at all?


thebratqueen

2002-06-06 05:30 pm (UTC) (Link)

If he did he didn't do it on-camera. I think Giles has a cast on his arm or at least his arm in a sling at the end of S2 but my memory of that is currently fuzzy.

And word on the Angel reading thing but I'm sure you saw my rant about that wrt the episode in question ;)

You know, I swear we should just start a list of "THIS IS NOT CANON, DIPSHITS" and put it on the web somewhere as a public service ;)

kita0610

2002-06-06 05:41 pm (UTC) (Link)

Ah, forgot your rant, tho I did see it I believe.

God, a This Is Not Canon list would ROCK. Things to put on there?

Buffy does not smell like vanilla, although apparantly, Willow DOES smell like strawberries.

SEX is not what makes Angel lose his soul. And no, you morons, it's not that he can only have sex with DEMONS. HAPPINESS comma PERFECT. Hello. Write it down.

I know TBQ et al will disagree with me, but I don't mind the word childe if used sparingly in fic. But if you make Angel SAY it, or CALL SOMEONE that, you better have a DAMN fine explanation. Cause it's. not. canon.

Drusilla bit and turned Spike. Sorry. Joss fucked all us slashers up the ass with it, but it's true. You wanna say Angel taught him everything he knows, hey, I'm all for that. You wanna say he was Angelu's boytoy for 26 years, hey baby, I'm your greatest fan. But Dru sired him. She sired Darla, who was older, infinitely more powerful and sincerely PISSED OFF about it. Methinks she could have handled one William the Not Yet Bloody.

Willow is not a Wiccan. She may be "Wicca", whatever the fuck Joss wants that to entail, but she doesn't talk to or about any pagan diety except when it serves a plot point in her 'spell casting', she doesn't celebrate the Sabbats, and she most certainly never exclaims "OH GODDESS!" when upset. The only Wiccan in Jossverse just got shot.

Xander's father never beat him. Never raped him. Never threatened his life. Canon has him as an alcoholic, and not a great guy. Apparantly, Xander would rather sleep outside than with his family on holidays. You could *make a case* that Xander was abused physically, but for godsake MAKE IT, don't assume it, because all we have seen is lousy parenting, not anything yet worthy of a federal crime.

Ah Christ. I'm ranting.





mpoetess

2002-06-06 05:47 pm (UTC) (Link)

Actually, if you're just going by what Jenny/Uncle wossisface said, it's not Happiness, perfect. It's happiness, true. Which could be a world of difference.

Fans, and later even the characters, have said "perfect" -- but the only ones who knew what the fuck they were talking about, said "true."

kita0610

2002-06-06 05:49 pm (UTC) (Link)

Ok, I give. What's the dif??

-D

(no subject) - mpoetess, 2002-06-06 05:56 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kita0610, 2002-06-06 06:04 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mpoetess, 2002-06-07 07:11 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - byrne, 2002-06-07 08:34 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mpoetess, 2002-06-07 09:12 am (UTC) (Expand)

mpoetess

2002-06-06 05:53 pm (UTC) (Link)

Yes, we need a "This is not canon" list.

James and I have a little one at S/X & Violence, mainly dealing with Xander and Spike issues (not necessarily X/S issues) but yeah, we need one big one, located somewhere away from anybody's particular guild site, so we can be as snarky as we wanna be, then just link from our own sites and pretend we're not responsible...

(no subject) - mpoetess, 2002-06-06 05:58 pm (UTC) (Expand)

thebratqueen

2002-06-06 05:54 pm (UTC) (Link)

Hey - you're the ficbitch, wanna host the this is not canon list? I'd offer except your website gets more traffic than mine.

/me goes to post about this in her own journal.

(no subject) - kita0610, 2002-06-06 06:04 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - thebratqueen, 2002-06-06 06:07 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kita0610, 2002-06-06 06:13 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kita0610, 2002-06-06 06:06 pm (UTC) (Expand)

witchwillow

2002-06-06 06:14 pm (UTC) (Link)

::blushes::

guilty.

1) I think I have used childe

2) have definately had Willow saying "Oh Goddess" - though mainly when extremely upset. And it does relate to a later plot point in the fic. But still ::blush::

3)uhmm you should probably never read Dark Delight.

Which Mp, I"m going to work on right this minute, ,since I can't get my ass to bed, cause I need something to do to stop thinking about the apparently non-existant bomb that's not on tv.

(no subject) - kita0610, 2002-06-06 06:18 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mpoetess, 2002-06-06 06:21 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mpoetess, 2002-06-06 06:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kita0610, 2002-06-06 06:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
AGGGGHHHH - thete1, 2002-06-07 04:11 am (UTC) (Expand)

iroshi

2002-06-07 06:52 am (UTC) (Link)

Willow is not a Wiccan.

Da, thank you very much. Needed desperately to be said. She attended a Wiccan group meeting a couple of times, but decided it wasn't for her because they weren't discussing magic. It was clearly a religious meeting (and of the fluff-bunny variety, at that), and it wasn't what she wanted.

I've wished, this entire season, that Joss would make the distinction between Dark and Light Magic more clear. He *did* make the distinction, but only in random throw-away moments, like the demon in Buffy's form saying, "Did you cut the throat?!" and the like. Or when MarySue Riley was complimenting Will on turning back from the dark side. :)

But Joss doesn't have his own worldview straight in his head, so while we can hope and whine, we're not ever going to get a consistent canon out of him. And like most Mundanes (which, sorry, he is) he doesn't understand the distinction between religions which include a concept of magic, and the magic itself. Mind, I'm not Wiccan myself. But I am a pagan who does magic, and they're not intertwined. My husband is a pagan who, for the most part, *doesn't* do magic. And I know at least one magic-user who has little to no religious system at all. (Personally, I seldom say, "Oh goddess!" but frequently do say, "Oh gods!". :)

And can the simple grammar bitch in me moan just a minute over the phrase "a powerful Wicca"??? Please! "A Buddhism" or "A Christianity". GAH! Followers of Christianity are Christians, followers of Buddhism are Buddhists, followers of Wicca are Wiccans, and Willow's just a WITCH! (Which reminds me...Xander's line in I've Got a Theory was cute and all, but can we now, after seeing Willow go bad, agree that the concept of "evil witches" is not a contradiction?)

/rant. Thank you very much, I feel better now. :)

mpoetess

2002-06-06 05:44 pm (UTC) (Link)

His fingers are wrapped, and in splints. We don't *know* Angelus broke them, but unless it happened during the raid on the library, it's pretty likely.


kita0610

2002-06-06 05:50 pm (UTC) (Link)

EXCELLENT! Thank you!! I'd COMPLETLEY forgotten that. Well, at least one bit of my fic has not completely succumbed to fanon then. *G*

-D

thebratqueen

2002-06-06 05:55 pm (UTC) (Link)

There ya go! I knew my memory had him in some kind of first aid bondage.

(no subject) - mpoetess, 2002-06-06 05:59 pm (UTC) (Expand)